Subject:
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Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:51:02 GMT
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Viewed:
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1371 times
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I'll try to address both Adam's and Ross's posts at the same time.
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Adam Murtha writes:
> Hi Ross.
>
> I would have thought if there was any conclusive evidence for the existence
> of god that the christian belief wouldn't crumble, but be elevated to new
> heights of wisdom and logic.
Exactly. I believe that too. As I mentioned in my other post, I can put my
hands on a huge amount of evidence for the existence of God - all
circumstantial, and none of it 100% conclusive, but incredibly convincing
nonetheless.
> The statement that if god exists he, is beyond our understanding, is good
> for those who have faith, but to me sounds like another excuse. I've heard
> the arguments that evolution is the tool of god etc. but again, an excuse.
> And until it is proven otherwise, I will continue to believe what extensive
> scientific studies have shown.
As I said before, faith is necessary to any religion. In Christianity, we
have a reason why we need faith (postulate 2, so that we can maintain our
free will of choice). Science does "prove" the existence of God. Not
conclusively, or else there would be no room left for faith, but still to
satisfy nearly anyone.
The very *study of science* itself presupposes the existence of God to for
it to work! Why?
-Rationality: Science assumes that there is a rational explanation for
everything.
-Logic: Science assumes that by studying details and making observations
about an unknown phenomenon, that phenomenon can be described. The whole
follows logically and naturally from the part.
-Coherence: Science requires evidence for proof. If evidence contradicts
existing explanations, they must be thrown out, because the explanation must
be coherent with all explanations.
These all presuppose that the universe is inherently ordered. If the
universe had haphazardly sprung into existence by itself, there would be no
outside governing force to make it behave logically, rationally, or
coherently. Right and wrong would have no meaning, and there would be no
guarantee that a phenomenon would have an intelligible order to it. Science
cannot function in a chaotic universe.
Point by point, here is the support for the above:
-Rationality: God is by definition rational - there is a reason for
everything. He is a God of Order, not Chaos.
-Logic: God makes His nature known in what He creates. Each of His
creations reflect Himself, for He cannot create something totally and
absolutely without relation or relevance to His nature. Thus, every detail
observed about God must reflect and describe God.
-Coherence: God is by definition coherent. He cannot contradict Himself or
do anything foreign or contrary to His nature. He is internally consistent.
>
> Adam
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ross Crawford writes:
> > Hi Adam, and greetings from Australia!
> >
> > I don't believe in god.
I hope that you change your mind!
> >
> > But for many years I thought I did, and came to realise that following god
> > *must* be based on faith.
Exactly. While doubts remain, faith must provide the impetus for a belief
in God.
> > As soon as any conclusive eveidence for his existence shows up, the whole
> > christian belief will crumble. And simply put, those who believe in such a
> > god must explain everything in terms of that faith.
> >
> > Thus god cannot intervene in any way that makes it obvious to everyone that
> > it's god intervening, or he instantly loses all his followers.
Adam and I disagree; see above.
> >
> > As to the creationist thing, well that's been debated here (and many other
> > places) before, and will be again, but I'm happy with the possibility that:
> >
> > 1. god, if he exists, is an entity beyond our understanding, so may in fact
> > be consistent with "proof" that no being (as per our knowledge of beings)
> > could have created the universe;
He *Himself* is beyond our understanding, but His infiniteness can manifest
itself in finite ways that we can understand.
> > 2. evolution may be the tool that god devised to create the universe
> > (including the world & man).
Possibly. But I doubt God wasted His time by fiddling around with the laws
of chance and engineering evolution; that would have introduced a middleman.
I think He did it Himself.
> >
> > Dunno if this all makes sense or not...
Debate brings out the truth. Keep debating until it makes sense :).
> >
> > ROSCO
--Ian
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