Subject:
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Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer))
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:56:26 GMT
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Viewed:
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1505 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jason J. Railton writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ian Warfield writes:
> > Oh dear. Let me start over.
> >
> > God is good, and there is no evil or sin in him. God created everything, so
> > therefore everything reflects God's goodness in some way. People doing good
> > things don't do it because of their innate goodness; they reflect the
> > goodness of their Creator.
> > ...
> > All righty then...
> > ...
> > Given that the universe had a beginning, which is commonly known as the Big
> > Bang. Given that the laws of physics were set at the beginning and have
> > remained unchanged since.
>
> So, here's how I like to see it. If God started everything off, what if He
> let it play out - what if He wasn't sticking His oar in every five minutes?
> What if we really do have free will, for a start? Who wants to live in a
> universe where you can only be free up to point, then God intervenes, anyway?
God reserves the right to engineer events, but He makes sure to allow us to
maintain our free will. Anyway it's God's universe; He can do what He wants
with it.
> If you fundamentally believe the bible, why do you think the tree of
> knowledge was placed in the Garden of Eden in the first place? Even if it's
> just a metaphor, it's a metaphor for freedom. I want to believe too, but I
> want to make my own choice to do so.
You have that choice. The tree of knowledge was placed in the Garden of
Eden to allow Adam and Eve their choice of whether or not to rebel. (Don't
forget, God allowed free and unfettered access to the other trees.)
> > The laws of physics must be extraordinarily precise for the universe to
> > function as we know it and remain functioning until today...
> >
> > Ratio of Electrons to Protons, 1:10^37
> > Ratio of Electromagnetic Force, Gravity 1:10^40
> > Expansion Rate of Universe, 1:10^55
> > Mass of Universe, 1:10^59
> > Cosmological Constant, 1:10^120
> >
> > If even one of those properties had deviated beyond the range indicated,
> > life would not be possible.
> >
> > From Dr. Hugh Ross's *The Creator and the Cosmos*,
> > One part in 10^37 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to
> > visualize. The following analogy might help...
>
> Yes, thank you. Odds on life existing on any one planet? Remote? Well, we
> must be very lucky here on Earth - but wait, if life didn't arise, we
> wouldn't be having this discussion. So, big bangs could happen an infinite
> number of times, or on an infinite number of quantum probabilities, throwing
> up an infinite number of constants, squidgy lumps, and even the odd planet,
> but we only actually get to gawp at it from the 1 in however many where it
> all comes together - none of the others. So all those other possibilities
> (count 'em if you like) are completely irrelevant.
But our universe is extraordinarily logical, coherent, and reliable. The
chance that we happened to fall in the exact universe that not only fits
these (and other) requirements but fits them to a huge degree of precision,
is astronomical.
Either belief requires faith, because neither can be proven conclusively.
Would you rather have faith that there are an astronomical number of dead
and botched universes out there (none of which we can prove exists) which by
probability accompany our one coherent universe? Or would you rather have
faith that God designed our universe with us in mind, and only needing one
attempt?
--Ian
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