 | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | bin Laden declared war on the US some time ago. We were fools for not paying attention. But that's what we do, we ignore small pests until they get out of hand... (...) Correct. (...) Correct. It is indeed a wake up call. (...) You're full of it (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: War —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | (...) This really is rich coming from you, the USA may well be viewed as a world saviour by many - but my understanding is that "world saviour" is not a roll you are happy with. Or have events this week changed that? (...) Rather than giving them (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) I am comfortable with being a world saviour in the sense that we set a good example to the rest of the world on how to do things and how be free (imperfect, but better than, say, Syria), but not in the sense of being the world's policeman. We (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: War —Lawrence Wilkes
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| | | | | | | "Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:GJM51s.HFz@lugnet.com... (...) Larry, where do you fundamentally disagree with me on many levels? When have we had disagreements? I hope you were not reading my earlier reply as my (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) LW it's with regard to some old threads, some things were said by you there that I did fundamentally disagree with. If I get time I will go back and respond in a bit more detail. Also you do have a tendency to view Britain as above reproach (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I rarely agree with Larry a whole lot, but my reactions are almost 100% the same. The first response to terrorists is to refuse to be terrified. The second response is to destroy their ability to terrorize. If someone is pointing a gun at me, (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Lawrence Wilkes
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| | | | | | | | "Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:GJMFCE.LKt@lugnet.com... (...) Larry. Peace. We are on the same side. I admitted I was wrong to flame Greg, he has admitted he might have worded his post better. It is all to easy, (...) (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Yes. Peace. ++Lar (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: War —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) Rather than saviour perhaps you should use “role model”. The problem with that is that everyone version of “civilisation” is not necessarily the same. (...) They problem is that they view the USA as the aggressor. For them, the USA went to war (...) (24 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: War —Jason J. Railton
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| | | | (...) Bin Laden was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets. At the time, he probably thought the USA was supporting his ideology, rather than simply persuing its own anti-communist one. USA suport then rapidly disappeared. He was then witness to (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: War —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) You're gerrymandering the facts, either deliberately or otherwise. The attack on US soil was itself an act or war, and if bin Laden is indeed responsible, he himself declared war on the US long ago. If the US responds to his declaration by (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: War —Jason J. Railton
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| | | | (...) Declarations of war come from nations, not from individuals. His declaration of war against the US was his own posturing. He does not represent his country, as the actions of the IRA do not represent theirs. (...) And this is exactly my point. (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | (...) And the Barbary Pirates did not represent any particular country but the US nevertheless declared war on them and dealt with them, quite effectively. If we should decide to make the symbolic act of declaring war on terrorism, it will be the (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: War —Jason J. Railton
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| | | | | | (...) "SANCTUARY: place of safety for a fugitive". Yes, they are providing sanctuary. My point is that that in itself does not make them a legitimate target. The Afghan government do not need to provide anything material for bin Laden; he has enough (...) (24 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: War —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) In fact, it does. State-provided sanctuary for a terrorist, conspirator, and murderer, is de facto identical to committing terrorism, conspiracy, and murder. Is it acceptable to you that bin Laden and his followers commit whatever acts they (...) (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I do not believe that, Dave! (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: War —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | (...) and (...) According to whom? (...) In fact it's unlikely bin Laden actually leaves his "protective apron" - he probably delegates any international tasks to others. And how is applying military force to the people of Afghanistan, many of whom (...) (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I would call it self-evident, though I will attempt to construct a syllogism for you. In the meantime, I likewise would ask you for your refutation of my assertion. (...) Do (...) Well, now you're quibbling. Whether he actually leaves the (...) (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) with (...) I realise I've snipped a lot of stuff and I will get back to it later, but I think here lies the fundamental difference in our opinions. The answer is no, I identify no difference between the deliberate murder of innocent civilians (...) (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Then let me clarify the question: Do you identify no difference between 1) Murdering innocent civilians aboard a civilian jet and in civilian buildings and 2) The death of civilians resulting from their proximity to known military targets If (...) (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Melody Brown
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I have not read all of the things said, in all of the hundreds of posts here, so forgive me there... I think though that these people who fear they are about to be attacked will try and evacuate themselves to what they may think could be a (...) (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | Ross, your stance here completely baffles me. You're nitpicking against taking action but you (and Jason) haven't proposed any concrete plan of your own other than (paraphrasing and guessing) "right all the injustice in the world everywhere and the (...) (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | (...) On the contrary, I summarised what I think is appropriate action here (URL) but you (and Jason) haven't proposed any concrete plan of your (...) Does "concrete plan" == "the right response"? (...) On the contrary, I think we've just been shown (...) (24 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) addressed what to do if the Taliban, even after being presented with clear and credible evidence (assuming it can be developed) that anyone else would accept, thumbs their nose and says you can't have him. So you're nitpicking against taking (...) (24 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Huh??? Yes, I'm against military action. That doesn't mean I'm against action. (...) Because thinking about it now will reduce the needless deaths which will just mount up the longer we leave it. (...) 1. List all the wars in history. 2. Put a (...) (24 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) So what is your plan then? Ask nicely? What if asking causes Pakistan to topple and the Taliban to launch a war? (...) So you are so sure that you know what to fix that you see debate as "needless"? My, I wish I was that certain. I see debate (...) (24 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) how (...) internal (...) I never said I know what to fix, or that the debate was needless. You said now is not the time for examining policies, I think it is, whether or not other action is taken concurrently. (...) Sure. I just disagree with (...) (24 years ago, 28-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Jason J. Railton
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| | | | | | | | (...) That's childish. I could summarise your position as "lets kill lots of people somewhere far away - that'll make everything better", but that would be equally insulting. I certainly don't recommend the US try to march in everywhere to 'right (...) (24 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jason J. Railton writes: <snip lots of mischaracterisation by Jason and myself> Let's try to see if we can find the common ground here. You and Ross agree with me and others that the terrorists who perpretrated this (...) (24 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | (...) Seems a good summation from my POV. (...) No probs there either. I'd prefer not to discuss directions, as I have fairly limited knowledge of America's foreign policy. But I think it's fair to assume that someone's pretty annoyed with it right (...) (24 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: War —Jason J. Railton
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| | | | | | | | (...) Yup, me too. (...) Yes, this is the difference. The US seems to want military action against known terrorists, even if bin Laden is just a suspect in this one case. I would suggest that the only immediate action that should be taken is to (...) (24 years ago, 18-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) Well, maybe it's time to correct that. Chris (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) Why? Power units are the concern, not nations. These are new times and governments will become less important as other power structures evolve. I think you're operating in the old paradigm. Chris (24 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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