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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> bin Laden declared war on the US some time ago. We were fools for not paying
> attention. But that's what we do, we ignore small pests until they get out
> of hand...
Bin Laden was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets. At the time, he
probably thought the USA was supporting his ideology, rather than simply
persuing its own anti-communist one. USA suport then rapidly disappeared.
He was then witness to further examples of the USA meddling in
middle-eastern affairs to support their own domestic interests. Support of
Iraq against Iran, then attacking it when it turned on Kuwait. To some, the
very principles of what the USA calls freedom - pursuit of hapiness - is
seen simply as the pursuit of personal material wealth, and is thus evil.
It's not a case of ignoring small pests - it's a case of causing incredible
resentment through the pursuit of short-term gain, and worse, being totally
oblivious to it.
America has made great contributions to the world - I don't dispute that.
The Clinton administration made great strides in fostering peace around the
world too, but that disappeared overnight at the last presidential election.
What was needed was that support in the long-term.
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
>
> > What happened yesterday was a murderous and destructive act of hatred
> > against our nation.
>
> Correct.
>
> > But it should also be considered a wake up call to our
> > government
>
> Correct. It is indeed a wake up call.
>
> > for it's unarguable role in fostering aggression and hatred
> > around the world, and within our own borders as with Oklahoma City.
>
> You're full of it here, though. It's extremely arguable.
No, he's not. He has an opinion which many others are expressing too.
> I'm dismayed, and even a little sickened, but not surprised, that you'd use
> any opportunity to parrot your usual tripe. The US, flaws and all, is more
> of a world saviour than a world oppressor. It is time you realised that.
So what? No amount of good acts can justify continuing to do bad ones. The
point is to identify and learn from errors, not ignore and repeat them.
> > The
> > innocent shouldn't be condemned and suffer and die for the sins of the
> > leadership.
>
> Agreed. And when we disassemble Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya and N. Korea
> to root out the harborers of this evil, we should be sure not to make
> innocents suffer needlessly. But the guys dancing in the street in glee over
> this aren't innocents.
And no American will cheer when they see that nation bombed, live on Fox?
> > We should seriously examine why someone, or some group, would
> > feel compelled to carry out such a horrible act.
>
> Because they are not human. No other explanation is needed. No other
> explanation can be accepted.
Now, let me make a division here. The acts of these terrorists is without
justification. I wholly support their pursuit, capture and punishment.
However, I do not support this being done by any means George W Bush may
think is necessary.
> They're not the only ones, mind you, but I say the race will be better off
> without their genes. No grievance, no mission from Allah, no moral
> justification, can justify this. None.
>
> > There are several lessons
> > to be learned here, the main one is that killing innocent men, women and
> > children is wrong.
>
> In what way is this a lesson? Are you saying that you didn't already know
> this? If you didn't, I pity you. If you did know this, it's not a lesson.
>
> > Most important, let our comments rest on peace and
> > justice, not war and revenge.
>
> How about war and justice?
>
> I support the notion of the civilized nations of the world going to the
> Talibans and Libyas of the world and saying "turn them all over now or you
> will be disassembled and another government put in place." and then carrying
> it out. This attack cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. I'll pay my
> share of trillions if that's what it takes to drastically reduce this
> scourge. The time for measured responses is over. Massive overwhelming force
> is the appropriate response to the initiators of force.
Try it. What you will find is people who hate the US more than they
disapprove of these terrorists. People who would rather hide someone they
know is a criminal (who, of course, is no threat to them) rather than
capitulate to what they perceive as an evil foreign agressor. By its own
terms, the USA will start another world war. It will be the cause, but will
refuse to see it that way.
These terrorists will be unreachable because of the resentment the US has
generated. The US will then drive itself to a war against entire nations.
> Do it in a way that minimises innocent civilians. Drop leaflets first saying
> "now is the time to rise up against the tyrants. If you don't, stand back
> out of the way. If you support your misguided terrorist harboring government
> even now, after this, prepare to face the consequences, you're no longer an
> innocent.".
Then go in and teach everyone how to read. Obtain signatures that they have
read and fully understand the content of that document. Or, leave the
general population alone. No doubt there are operatives already in there
who could tell if the people will support an invasion or not. Do not assume
that just because the US opposes a government, it's populace does too.
> bin Laden has said he's declared war on the US. Fine. We should have took
> him at his word back then, but better late than never. It matters not
> whether he was behind this or not, we'll figure it out either way. But he's
> behind enough other stuff that I am content to see him and his pack of rabid
> dogs brought to justice for those acts regardless. And while we're at it,
> let's take care of some of the other terrorists as well.
>
> The US is not the world's policeman. But we can and should defend our shores
> when they are attacked, wherever in the world that takes us.
>
> The US is not perfect, and we have things we should fix. Lots of them. But
> it sickens me to hear people say "too bad about the deaths, you had it
> coming" and sickens me even worse to see people handing out candy to
> celebrate death and destruction, whether they were victims or not. They
> deserve our scorn, not our sympathy.
It sickens me to see an act committed by a few evil individuals taken as
justification for initiating a war.
You make out that those who point out the long-term results of short-term US
foreign policy, those who rejoice in the destruction, and those who
committed these acts are one and the same. All enemies of the USA.
I'm currently facing the possibility of redundancy, as my company proceeds
with a breakup and buyout, yet my chief concern for the future is that some
illiterate Texan on the other side of the world is about to drag my
countrymen and I into a global ideological war, for reasons which I cannot
support.
Perhaps the question of how the US engenders this sort of resentment in its
closest allies could be tackled first, if the one about the middle east is
too difficult.
The fight against terrorism will not be won overnight, nor with a single
military strike, nor by blaming everyone else. Find another way.
Jason J Railton
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: War
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| (...) You're gerrymandering the facts, either deliberately or otherwise. The attack on US soil was itself an act or war, and if bin Laden is indeed responsible, he himself declared war on the US long ago. If the US responds to his declaration by (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: War
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| bin Laden declared war on the US some time ago. We were fools for not paying attention. But that's what we do, we ignore small pests until they get out of hand... (...) Correct. (...) Correct. It is indeed a wake up call. (...) You're full of it (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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