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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ross Crawford writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > Ross, your stance here completely baffles me. You're nitpicking against
> > taking action
>
> On the contrary, I summarised what I think is appropriate action here
> http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=12670
There's no plan there. You say that you support trying them but you haven't
addressed what to do if the Taliban, even after being presented with clear
and credible evidence (assuming it can be developed) that anyone else would
accept, thumbs their nose and says you can't have him.
So you're nitpicking against taking action.
> > but you (and Jason) haven't proposed any concrete plan of your
> > own other than (paraphrasing and guessing) "right all the injustice in the
> > world everywhere and the murderers will stop murdering". Please explain how
> > that would work. I don't see it.
>
> Does "concrete plan" == "the right response"?
>
> > We do need to right injustice. We do need to examine our policies, internal
> > and external. But now is not the time.
>
> On the contrary, I think we've just been shown it *is* the time.
Please elaborate. Why now rather than after bringing the fever down?
> > It will take years and trillions of dollars to do this war. It may cost in
> > real dollars as much as WW II did. I think the people of America are ready
> > to spend that though. We are slow to anger as a nation but our anger is a
> > mighty thing once aroused.
>
> It will probably also cost a comparable number of innocent lives, many of them
> American. Are you ready to spend that much? I'm not.
No one is, at this juncture, asking you to. Take it up with your government
if and when they decide to support the US and you don't agree. America will
no doubt have to bear the brunt of this expense just like we always do. So
be it. It is the burden of Empire. Ask Kipling.
I'd prefer that we be an inward looking Republic but the world may not allow
us to do so and if we have to save the rest of the world (again) at our own
expense to make things safe, why then I guess we will just have to do so.
> And I'm not ready to deny
> these people the right to a fair trial, just because they deny me that right.
Nor am I.
> > The first bombing of Afghanistan needs to be with leaflets. It needs to
> > explain what happened and what is about to be done and offer a choice. Rise
> > up, aid the cleansing force, overthrow the Taliban, or be part of the
> > infection, and be cleansed.
>
> And what if they really want to, and give it their best shot (presumably with
> help from NATO, etc), but fail? And do you think bin Laden and his precious
> Taliban will sit idly by while they're trying? I don't think this is a fair
> ultimatum at all, and will just end up with more innocent deaths on both >sides.
OK, what do you suggest then if you support trying them but aren't willing
to actually go arrest them? Let's hear something concrete. That post you
referred to above wasn't it. Posit for the sake of the discussion that bin
Laden is guilty, and that the Taliban says "screw you". (neither of those is
established yet) Now what?
> > I think there is merit in questioning, up to a point. We need to make sure
> > we do things in as safe and effective manner as possible. But once the
> > questions have been satisfactorily answered, the perception of the
> > questioner isn't that they are heartless, but that they are clueless. You
> > aren't over that line quite yet. Quite. But you're close.
>
> With respect, Lar, you have *no idea* how close I am to *anything*.
I know cluelessness when I see it. I know asking questions that have been
answered just for the sake of asking when I see it as well. You are not
there yet, you are no Scott Arthur, yet. But you're close.
++Lar
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: War
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| (...) Huh??? Yes, I'm against military action. That doesn't mean I'm against action. (...) Because thinking about it now will reduce the needless deaths which will just mount up the longer we leave it. (...) 1. List all the wars in history. 2. Put a (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: War
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| (...) On the contrary, I summarised what I think is appropriate action here (URL) but you (and Jason) haven't proposed any concrete plan of your (...) Does "concrete plan" == "the right response"? (...) On the contrary, I think we've just been shown (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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