 | | Re: Only nations can generate patriotic pride (Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?)
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(...) As per my reply to Chris I wasn't actually saying that governments should run sewerage, only that government is critically important, like sewerage is critically important. (...) I think we've got a large area of agreement on this, looking at (...) (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Only nations can generate patriotic pride (Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?)
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(...) That's wonderful. The point (in case I was not abundantly clear) is not that governments should run sewerage systems, but that governments are important, like sewerage systems are important. Richard Still baldly going... (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) Me either. At least not the idea of it, and the time was about right, or if anything. My issues are with the execution of it. Too many compromises for it to achieve the promised cost reductions that would have driven vastly greater usage.. (...) (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: We're here to go
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(...) It's not just the challenge of the order of magnitude increase in velocity that's required, but significant issues in handling rentry and hypersonic flight in general. I don't believe SS1 has a thermal protection system that's anywhere close (...) (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: We're here to go
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(...) The prize does not pay for the cost of development. SS1 is not going to go into any kind of orbit. Both those are from a friend of mine who works on the project (I literally asked him those very questions a few weeks ago). -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Only nations can generate patriotic pride (Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?)
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(...) The type of sewerage handling systems that I may install are defined by building code. So I guess, the government. Discharge testing at the site (I'm running with septic) is done prior to accepting the design as legal. I'm actually not sure (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: We're here to go
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(...) The above assumption is massively invalid, apparently. The velocity achieved by SpaceShipOne is way way too low to be stretchable to LEO by leaving a few passengers out. I hadn't done my homework when I posted this, and I'm perfectly fine with (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) The exact term you used, I think, wasn't it? (...) I don't recall ever making any such claim, I think you have me confused with someone else. However, if you can provide a cite where I said it, I'll gladly retract any statement I may have made (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) If this is such a monumental waste of your time, perhaps you'd prefer to get back to our discussion of whether or not tritium can be harnessed as an economic power source? I seem to remember a similar response when I pointed out that we'd need (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) Yes, exactly! What's the point of developing a single-capacity heavy-launch system that's so prohibitively expensive as to restrict the range of customers to just Washington D.C.? I love the concept of strapping three D4's together to get a (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) I pride myself on my sophistrication. Dave! FUT ot.fun, because I'm having such a swell time! (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) So due to your lack of inclination to post a proper rebuttal, we're suppose to take the 'absolute nonsense' as the end of the arguement? "Hey Joe--you're an idiot!" "Wha--? Why???" "I don't have time nor the inclination to tell you, you're an (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) Personally, I like the spurious fake-quotation that raises (shouldn't that be "lowers"?) sophistry to a new level. ;-) -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) From page 112 of (URL) The Libertarian Playbook:> "Though technically not a valid rhetorical device, argument by assertion is commonly employed when attempting to dismiss an argument by fiat." (...) Also (URL) from page 112:> "One may attempt (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) That's absolute nonsense. I could say more on this topic at this time but I'm not sure it's a good use of my time. (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) (URL) This> is interesting. "The Saturn 5 was also not cheap to operate... the launch cost of a single Saturn 5 at $431 million in 1967, or over $2.4 billion a launch in 2004 dollars... ...It’s not inconceivable that a new heavy-lift vehicle (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Not from what I understand. Rutan did start work before the X-Prize became fully-funded at $10 million, but he was inspired to get started by the X-Prize itself. He is reported to have started his program in 2001, but the X-Prize was founded (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Saturn V rockets would have, admittedly, had a lower cost per payload pound, but who would have been able to take advantage of that capacity besides the government? Commercial enterprise needs greater cost efficiency, not greater capacity. (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is that for development or launch? (...) NASA is also a governmental agency, and therefore bound by red tape. In other words, they have to spend money to spend money. The government has been cited as spending $300 on a hammer, but the hammer (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) S'funny...I've often thought much the same thing about you. BTW, did you ever track down your answer on using the (R) symbol when typing "The LEGO Company"? (...) Lessee, from what I've read, the OCST was formed as part of a bipartisan effort (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) Costs money to store - does Ford still have the tooling for the Model T? And let me express at least some skepticism regarding the alleged motivation you attribute to NASA. -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Probably. But how many major aerospace endeavors come off exactly like they sound on paper? Hindsight is always 20/20. I certainly wouldn't call the shuttle program a huge mistake. Sure, it didn't deliver the promised goods, but I believe the (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) True. But it's difficult if not impossible to divorce NASA and Congress. NASA does what Congress tells it to do. (...) You're sort of trying to put words in my mouth here and I have to correct you, I'm afraid... No, the point is why (in 1969) (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) Merely a stepping stone. (...) Well, knock me over with a feather. Somebody inside NASA is apparently considering whether NASA should give prizes too. Maybe nothing will come of it, maybe it was a misquote, who knows. But maybe??? (URL) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | (canceled)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) Did it? Wasn't it Congress who wasn't too keen on buying more Saturns and cut the remaining moon missions and all the cool future Apollo applications projects that NASA DID want. The shuttle was then sold as a way to get more bang-for-the-buck (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Inside Bush's secret Afghan gulag
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(URL) Inside Bush's secret Afghan gulag>: "They were kicking me and beating me and shouting like animals at me... Then they asked me which animals - they made the noise of goats, sheep, dogs, cows - I had had sexual activities with. They laughed at (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) This whole tooling issue reminds me about the destruction of the early Lego moulds. (...) If they had kept this stuff, I expect their critics would have harangued them for wasting tax payer’s money maintaining and storing obsolete equipment. (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) (I should have said 'and infrastructure') (...) Nope. But if you get rid of one element then it becomes easier to justify getting rid of the rest. The tooling was just the last thing to go in a whole sorry parade of wanton waste and (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well of course they did. Is there any reason to spend money to preserve and maintain the tooling viability for a rocket that can no longer be launched? All the existing Saturn launch infrastructure was modified for shuttle use. The launch (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Only nations can generate patriotic pride (Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?)
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(...) Sewerage systems tend to be monopolies. The only way to ensure treatment and conveyance standards are met is to regulate performance... the "market" is poor at protecting our environment. (...) You are cherry picking. I'm sure IBM and BATF (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Only nations can generate patriotic pride (Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?)
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(...) Who makes sure of that; you or the government? Who tests WWTW discharges; you or the government? I assume your local sewerage operator runs a monopoly? Scott A (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) I heard a statistic indicating that the amount of energy needed to go into low orbit is about 70X the energy needed for this touching-the-face-of-God launch, so there are many difficulties to overcome, perhaps more daunting than the obstacles (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Only nations can generate patriotic pride (Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?)
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(...) Disagree, see below. (...) I'd agree with that. Properly construed, government is a tool to protect rights. Improperly constructed, government is a master that takes them away. (...) Two points. 1, Perhaps there's a bit of cause and effect (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) All of the Saturn tooling is no more. NASA admitted they did that on purpose to "focus efforts on the shuttle". Arguably the Saturns would have been really great Big Dumb Boosters if heavy lift was something that NASA was really interested in. (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Only nations can generate patriotic pride (Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?)
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(...) My sewerage system is completely privately owned and works just fine. Chris (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If I understand things correctly, Rutan and Allen were working on this project either before the X-Prize happened or before they knew about it. The prize did not catalyze their involvement in space. Chris (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Manoeuvring thrusters are the least of his worries; he shall need a 6-7 fold increases in velocity... and then he'll have to think about re-entry. Scott A (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?
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(...) What tooling have they destroyed? The shuttle cargo thing was bad because of the very thing that happened: JPL knew that any problem (as in loss of crew) meant long delays that could be avoided by using non-crewed launch vehicles. And there (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Only nations can generate patriotic pride (Re: Some good news for a change, maybe?)
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(...) An interesting idea - a distinction that had never really occurred to me before. To me the government is just an expression Australian-ness, not at all unlike an Australian company is another expression, as are our (non-governmental) sporting (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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