Subject:
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Re: Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:12:18 GMT
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Viewed:
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512 times
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<snip>
> > > > > > Do you not support the ordinary Palestinians?
> > > > >
> > > > > Define "ordinary Palestinians"
> > > >
> > > > Mr/Ms Average
> > >
> > > Wouldn't it be cool if your "ordinary Palestinians" actually had the same
> > > rights and abilities as people living in democracies. Most of the
> > > pro-palastinian arguments might actually make sense if Palastinians were not
> > > oppressed by the dictators that rule them. (Oh wait, I forgot everyone seems • to
> > > belive the lies that those dictators tell their people and broadcast on their
> > > state controlled news agencies; "It's all the 'evil' Israelis fault")
> >
> > Perhaps it is the their fault? If I were in the West Bank, I'd be more
> > worried about Israeli armour than my lack of personal freedoms... it is a
> > matter of priorities after all.
>
> The Israeli armour only moved in after 18 months of continous suicide attacks.
Israeli armour has been there since they started killing civilians and
stealing land in '48.
> >
> > >
> > > I have said it before, I will say it again Israel is far from perfect and • does
> > > a lot of really stupid things.
> >
> > Indeed.
> >
> > > However even the worst democracy has a better
> > > human rights record than the best dictatorship.
> >
> > I'm not sure about how true that is. I think it is covered well in a post LP
> > made a week or so ago.
> >
> > Let’s face it, Israel’s human rights record stinks. The Palestinians’ may
> > well be worse, but that does not make Israel’s record any better. Bad is bad.
>
> Well I get the impression that most people ignore the fact that the
> Palestinians not only started the whole thing but routinely do worse things.
What do you mean "started the whole thing"? Did they invite Israel to kick
them of their land in '48? I think not.
> I
> fully support critizising both sides bad actions. My overall impression (not
> in this group per se, but everywhere) is that most people 'forgive' (or
> whatever) the palestinians for what they see as acting out of desperation
> despite the fact that they are acting out of hatred. (if I was to belive anyone
> was acting out of desperation, it would be the Israelis despite the fact that
> they are essentially being universally condemned for defending themselves)
They are defending themselves in their role as an oppressor/occupation
force. If Israel were to retreat to the pre 67 borders tonight most of the
violence would stop tomorrow. With time, the extremists would be marginalised.
> >
> > > In the case of the democracy
> > > everyone can critizse bad actions and vote accordingly.
> >
> > I had a look at "democracy" in a dictionary, this is what I got:
> > "the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of
> > government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected
> > representatives or directly by the people themselves"
> >
> > Does Israel meet those criteria?
>
> Last time I checked it did.
Is "equality between people" enshrined in Israeli law?
> Let's review: Barak was elected because at the
> time most Israelis supported the peace movement. Arafat figuratively spit in
> Barak's face and began the currently on going 2 year terror campaign. Sharon
> was elected because Israelis were sick of terror attacks.
That was after Netanyahu ripped up Olso/Oslo II using a wafer thin majority.
Barak's offer was empty (it had to be ratified in a referendum). He knew
Arafat could not accept it. Even so, what stopped Barak from making a better
offer? What right does Israel have to the West Bank, Gaza or Jerusalem
anyway? Does SH not have equal rights over Kuwait?
> >
> > > In the case of
> > > dictatorships one says nothing out of fear for ones life. (As evidenced by • the
> > > number of pro-peace palestinians killed by their own leaders.)
> >
> > What happens when, in a democracy, a politician incites extremists to murder
> > peace activists? Did Rabin's widow not accuse Netanyahu of doing just that?
>
> I have not heard of this before. If that accusation is correct then the U.N.
> should just move in and arrest all of the current leaders and military
> commanders on both sides.
It's a fact. Rabin's wife greeted Arafat warmly after her husband's murder.
She refused to shake Netanyahu's hand as she held him responsible.
Scott A
> >
> > The fact that a murderer like Sharon has been democratically elected does
> > not make him any more palatable. I’m sure we both agree on that.
>
> Indeed.
> >
> > Scott A
>
> -Mike Petrucelli
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