Subject:
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Re: Poll: Majority Palestinians See Israel's Elimination as Goal
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:02:12 GMT
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Viewed:
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529 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > All the statistics said was that: "51.1 percent said that the aim of the
> > Intifadah is to liberate all Palestinian land (historic Palestine) as
> > opposed to 42.8 percent who said the Intifadah's aim is to end the Israeli
> > occupation."
>
> What do you mean by "all the statistics said was that.."? The conclusion is
> that over half of the Palestinians want Israel GONE. That seems pretty
> significant to me.
Not quite, 51.5% think the aim is to liberate all (historic) Palestinian. I
expect what you believe may well be true, but that stat does not show that.
> >
> > However, only 32.5% think the Intifada can end the occupation alone.
>
> > Do you not support the ordinary Palestinians?
>
> Define "ordinary Palestinians"
Mr/Ms Average
>
> > > Peace, it seems, is the
> > > last thing on these people's minds.
> >
> > That is perhaps how you would wish it. But think back to just after Oslo and
> > Oslo 2, was there not a real sense of hope after that? But what wrecked
> > that? Was it the Palestinians or right-wing Israelis?
>
> I'm not going to deny that there are Israelis whose solution to the violence is
> to get rid of the Palestinians. But I am much more confident that Israel can
> control her right wing a lot better than the Palestinians are willing to
> control their extremists-- their chosen leader *is* one.
Is that a "Yes"?
> >
> > The truth is that Israel is only interesting in peace on its terms.
>
> But that's not the WHOLE truth, because the same applies to Arafat.
So why did he agree to Oslo?
>
> When
> > Shamir ended his term as PM this is what he had to say:
> >
> > "It pains me greatly that in the coming four years I will not be able to
> > expand the settlements in Judea and Samaria [West Bank] and to complete the
> > demographic revolution in the Land of Israel. I know that others will now
> > try to work against this. Without this demographic revolution, there is no
> > value to the talk about autonomy, because there is a danger that it will be
> > turned into a Palestinian state. What is this talk about 'political
> > settlements'? I would have carried on autonomy talks for ten years, and
> > meanwhile we would have reached half a million people in Judea and Samaria."
> >
> > In the UK we call that gerrymandering, not peace making.
>
> And look what happened. He's GONE. That the beauty of a Democracy. So why
> are we talking about him?
Just an example of Israeli peacemaking. Do you want another? How about Mr
Netanyahu's record? Sharon's?
>
> > Your blinkered approach to this issue
>
> Blinkered approach? What about you? Why are you quoting a PM who has been
> gone for 10 years? Sharon (the *current* PM) has admitted that a Palestinian
> state is inevitable.
Sharon (the *current* PM) is a murderer.
>
> is what prevents you from
> > understanding the desperation of the Palestinians,
>
> No, what truly prevents me from understanding their desperation is their
> willingness to train their children to target and murder innocent women and
> children.
Has Sharon (the *current* PM) not murdered *many* women and children? Yet
you appear to respect him? Is there any logic in that?
>
> I don't understand that, nor will I ever. I don't care *how* desperate one is.
>
> and blindly supporting Mr
> > Sharon. In your last message you claimed that the whole issue can be blamed
> > on Islamimc extreamism. Closer inspection of the groups conducting suicide
> > attacks shows that of the 4 groups involved, 2 are actually secular in
> > nature. Your contribution to this debate so far has been "convenient" web
> > links
>
> Scott, would you be so kind as to define a "convenient web link"?
Rather than address points made previously which question your stand point,
you have a record of starting new threads with links which support your
view. I find that questionable.
>
> and your own very partial, and largly unsubstantiated, opinion.
> >
> > It is time you saw the light.
>
> :-)
>
> You, my friend, are the one with his head in the sand. I think you
> underestimate anti-semitism in the Arab world-- even in Europe.
I don’t doubt that anti-Semitism does exist in Europe. I do doubt it is any
more prevalent than other forms of bigotry. Personally, I have never heard
anyone make an antic-Semitic comment…. ever. [Conversely, I heard several
questionable comments during the England v Denmark game on Saturday… all
directed at the English team.]
I think the very weakest of Israel's supporters use allegations of
"anti-Semitism" to attempt to silence its critics. I actually know very
little about the specifics of the Jewish faith. However, I know enough to
know that what Israel is willing to do against the Palestinians is against
Judaism. That is why many of Israel’s biggest critics are Jews themselves.
Are they also anti-Semitic?
Do you think there is more anti-Semitism or anti-Islamism in the Western
World? Do you think one is any worse than the other? Is anti-Semitism any
worse in Europe than it is in the US? Has anti-Islamism gotten worse in the
US since 911? Why are you not complaining about that?
What about Israel? Is it a tolerant society? Did Netanyahu not once reject a
Knesset vote because it did not have a “Jewish majority”?
Is Israel a society which believes in equality? Are all citizens treated
equally? Even Muslim Arabs? Even Jewish Arabs? Is the notion of “equality”
enshrined in Israeli law?
Scott A
>
> And even when Palestine is finally founded, the hatred towards Israel will
> continue.
>
> -John
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