 | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) No cop-outs. The question is not, "How can you believe in God?", but, "How can you believe in man?!" God didn't do this, man did. I like how people expect God to intervene in self serving ways but they don't want Him to interfere with their (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Who would accuse God or anyone of being too controlling if what happened could have been prevented? And who would say God is controlling in anyway now? You said yourself that bad men do bad things and some people enjoy doing bad things, god (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Then how can anyone say that God has been merciful. Mercy implies participation. If God isn't participating, then he couldn't have been merciful. (...) What does that have to do with anything I've talked about? I thought the discussion was (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) My point was that He never obligated Himself to intervene in every circumstance. But He is very active. As some have said, it could have been much worse. Two planes were prevented from hitting their targets. The Pentagon was hit in it's least (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) The reason is that man acts to benefit man in countless, demonstrable, and tangible ways daily, while this alleged "God" of your has sat on His Divine Butt for two millennia or more without so much as a peep (unless we include the wholly (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) I thought he was supposed to be good, and love us all. I wouldn't let one of my loved ones be hurt or killed if I could prevent it, and since God is omnipotent, he CAN prevent such tragedies. So why does he not? I can only think of two (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) We wouldn't have the perspective of knowing what came next. The accusation might potentially arise because people would not know the true magnitude of what was prevented. (...) God is not always obvious about how He intervenes. The evidence we (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) But God may have another reason. He may want to use these tragedies to cause people to search for Him. He may also want to warn America against future possible terrorist attacks, which may be even worse than this was. If we are alerted to this (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
Thank you for explaining in further detail that statement. Although I'm not sure what you mean by "We wouldn't have the perspective of knowing what came next. The accusation might potentially arise because people would not know the true magnitude of (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) You're welcome. (...) Sorry, I tried to cram too much information into too few words :). I meant to say that if God had prevented the attack, we wouldn't have appreciated its sheer horrific magnitude, since we wouldn't have lived through it. (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) When you make that non-falsifiable assertion, you are presumably implying that We Cannot Know His Ineffable Plan, and therefore we must assume that everything will work out for Good. However, if We Cannot Know His Plan, then we certainly can't (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
I have reconsidered, and I conclude that I feel I need to say more. I rarely have a chance to debate religion, as I come from a large Catholic family, and I'm the only one who doesn't attend church, and no one will talk about religion around me, (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
Hi Adam, and greetings from Australia! I don't believe in god. But for many years I thought I did, and came to realise that following god *must* be based on faith. As soon as any conclusive eveidence for his existence shows up, the whole christian (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
Hi Ross. I would have thought if there was any conclusive evidence for the existence of god that the christian belief wouldn't crumble, but be elevated to new heights of wisdom and logic. The statement that if god exists he, is beyond our (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) True. This assertion is based on faith more than fact. (To clarify, the following is one of Jeff's paragraphs, not mine; and I addressed it in my previous post.) (...) Additionally, I'm Protestant, so I too look with skepticism at some of the (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Great! My prayer worked! You reconsidered! (...) Sorry to hear that. Hopefully, we can accommodate you. (By the way, I'm Protestant, so I may share some of your concerns with Catholicism.) (...) LOL. Who said that? (...) All religions are (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
I'll try to address both Adam's and Ross's posts at the same time. (...) Exactly. I believe that too. As I mentioned in my other post, I can put my hands on a huge amount of evidence for the existence of God - all circumstantial, and none of it 100% (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
This debate is going nowhere, and no one's opinion is going to change here. But you say there is convincing evidence that there is god, and yet I have seen any. Let me put my opinion this way. I will believe that there is a god when he shows (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Colby from Survivor 2. (...) Mark said: The Kindness Of Man. Please, give credit where credit is due, and don't shortchange the good people. You said: All goodness derives from God, but this is a technicality in this instance :). So what did (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Ack! No, don't tell me that Reality TV has provided *anything* pithy! (...) And, remember, if God created all and is omnipotent, God also created evil and possesses the power to destroy it at any time. Evil is not merely the absence of good. (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Yes, I re-read that and realised it wasn't a good description of my belief. Perhaps closer: "...he instantly loses all his followers, *from his point of view*, because they no longer have to make any choice to follow him." (...) I agree with (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Some of us would rather see you expend your energy in reviewing what came before rather than rehashing. Everything you've said has been said before in some previous incarnation of this debate, so don't think you're adding any new value or (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer))
|
|
(...) Oh dear. Let me start over. God is good, and there is no evil or sin in him. God created everything, so therefore everything reflects God's goodness in some way. People doing good things don't do it because of their innate goodness; they (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer))
|
|
(...) So, here's how I like to see it. If God started everything off, what if He let it play out - what if He wasn't sticking His oar in every five minutes? What if we really do have free will, for a start? Who wants to live in a universe where you (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Refer to the post I just put up: (URL) There is more, if you're interested. (...) You'll get your wish, eventually. When we die, we all face God. And at the end of the age, God will descend from Heaven in glory to set up His kingdom on earth. (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) See (URL) for a start. Incidentally, Jesus was God in the flesh, and we have the recorded history right in the Bible. <snip> (...) Possibly so. But then the hijackers would be making the accusations. God loves even them so much that He does (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Okay. But this is what I say about the faith issue: God wants us to follow Him by faith. If you have absolute proof, you remove the faith option. (...) Okay. But the universe had to be initiated by something, and if it wasn't God, what was it? (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
I neglected to respond to this... (...) God did not create evil. Evil is indeed the absence of good, just as cold is the absence of heat, and centrifugal force is the absence of centripetal force. --Ian (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer))
|
|
(...) God reserves the right to engineer events, but He makes sure to allow us to maintain our free will. Anyway it's God's universe; He can do what He wants with it. (...) You have that choice. The tree of knowledge was placed in the Garden of Eden (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) If you had been spending time reviewing past debates here you'd see that this question has been dealt with before. (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) It's not nearly so cranky as many of the others, but it's still largely based on anti-logic. Why can't it be the Hindu gods? Or why can't the Hare Krishnas be right? (...) But the physical state of the universe was quite different. We're in a (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) <snip> Excellent refutation. If Ian had been doing his homework reading what has been said here before maybe he wouldn't be posting essentially the same tired stuff all over again that we've all already heard. If people want to take comfort in (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Sorry, if God created everything, God created evil--at least, the capacity for it. Are you implying there are limits to the power of God? Also, good and evil are subjective concepts, arrived at by consensus--though in dogmatic (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Sorry, that's not recorded history. It's a literary chronicle--"history" as we know it today was part of the Greco-Roman tradition, not the Judaeo-Christian one. That, and the synoptic gospels have significant problems innate to their (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) Yeh, well, it's never for me so much as for the spectators. :D (...) My only search for common ground is to get the agreement that yes, belief in religion is a matter of faith and is therefore unprovable positively *or* negatively. My aim, if (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) Spot on. I have no beef with religion or any other dogma except when it obstructs progress. (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer))
|
|
(...) You're not getting it. Maybe there were 10^37 (or whatever) universal incarnations that had nothing like us occur. That's fine. You're arguing that a probability that doesn't actually have any bearing on our likelihood, does. I'm sorry, but (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer))
|
|
(...) Yes indeed. Another way to approach it is to point out that we (life in general) weren't running around looking for a universe to populate and were lucky enough to find this one; we (again, life in general) arose within this universe because (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer))
|
|
(...) Might that be because you don't play? That's *usually* my reason for not winning, although once in a while (when the expected value (of the net present value of the win after taxes) >100% of the cost to play) it is because the gods don't like (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) I think that this is the stance I have been leaning towards the past year or so. I feel rather lonely in church these days as I no longer "see" as the majority of the congregation seems to. Blind faith ("dogma" I suppose) seems to work at (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) As a Christian, I agree that if many so-called Christian leaders had their way we'd all be almost Amish. As I've said before, I believe it's because most Christians are guilt-motivated. They really don't know what to think and as such are (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) If that's a backhanded concession of any sort, I'll take it. :) Another good site is www.swordandspirit.com. It's chock full of humor - about as far from cranky as you can yet. (...) I don't see this. Can you cite an example? (...) At this (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) I don't understand this argument. Everything science proposes is theory (hypothesis, actually). It never goes beyond that. Everything science determines is a tentative explanation, pending better. It is not valid to claim that "evolution is (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Let's be honest about this--it's *entirely* based on faith, and not at all on fact. And that's where the issue ends, for many people. (...) Yes and no. They are capable of presenting a faithful account of their own recollections and of their (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) That's exactly what I meant. It wasn't an argument; I was just restating the fact that evolution is, indeed, a theory. (...) I wasn't claiming that it necessarily would. I was merely guarding against the possibility of anyone claiming it as (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) The "fact" side of this argument is based on Biblical "fact", but it requires "faith" to trust that what is in the Bible is indeed "fact". I suppose I can condede your point. (...) I can think of only two miracles that were not personally (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) To be more precise, evolution is a fact, just as gravity is a fact. The Darwinian model of natural selection is an evolutionary theory--that is, a theory that hopes to explain the process by which the fact of evolution occurs. (...) But no one (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) Sorry--your knowledge of scripture is more complete than mine. I'll need to re-check my sources. (...) That's not a bad point, but it is a fundamental sticking point for some people. The notion that the OT was a book predicting Christ's (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes: <snip> (...) Let me restate my position this way: FACT: Many, many species exist and have existed on Earth. The first species which appeared were very simple, single-celled organisms, without nuclei. (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) This is the key distinction. God created beings with free will, but free will necessitates the possibility of rebellion. God created the universe with the possibility of evil. This is not the same thing as creating evil itself. He allows it, (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | The god debate again... sigh^h^h^h^h yawn
|
|
(...) You're wandering into the "Can god make a stone so large he cannot lift it?" thicket. Here there be tygers. I note you did not address my previous post on "Why this discussion now? Did you do your homework before starting?" but just ignored (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) What about all the OT miracles, then? Leaving the NT aside for the moment, the OT predicted many events that also took place in the OT. <snip> (...) But Jesus's miracles are those which don't leave very much wiggle room. The healing miracles, (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) I'm not clear on the difference. Anyway, the Gospels were written in Greek, from within the Roman Empire. (...) These are faith issues. They can't be "proven" either way. (...) If the books were divinely inspired, then they aren't embellished. (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The god debate again... sigh^h^h^h^h yawn
|
|
(...) Indeed. I would say that there is no answer to this question, because it's a logical contradiction. God can lift anything He wants, and God can make anything He wants. But God wouldn't set out with the express purpose of making a stone too big (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins "Debate"
|
|
(...) There is more evidence around than just the fossil record though. For instance, my work involves comparing DNA sequences from different organisms. We can measure the differences between sequences, and draw a tree or nested set describing how (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) That is, by definition, circular reasoning. I predict that I will attach my name at the bottom of my post--that doesn't make it prophesy. My point is that the Bible is *in no way* adequate confirmation of its own supernatural claims, and there (...) (23 years ago, 25-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) <snip> (...) Wow. A miracle! The Church of Larritarianism IS accepting applications for prophets, if you're interested. Entrance exam is way less strict than, say, the Church of the SubGenius. And for all you other sinners out there, we also (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
|
|
(...) In the biz, I believe that's called a wide Prophet Margin. (...) You had me up until this part--sounds too much like Amway or Scientology (the latter of which is certainly and irrefutably a religion, and not in any way a cult dreamed up by a (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
|In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ian Warfield writes: | |>Let me restate my position this way: | |>The theory of evolution states that these organisms developed of their own |>accord, by means of spontaneous, large-scale genetic mutations in a (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) Dave!: Here we come to the great defeater of your argument: The existence of Baseball is final and convincing proof that a Loving and Good God does in fact exist. I defy you to postulate any theoretical universe in which Baseball, in all its (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) I'm not a particular fan of baseball, but even I am amazed that the Pirates have seemed somehow to lose more games this year than everyone else in the league combined. What especially steams me is that Pittsburgh in its infinite, (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) While the existence of Baseball may be an unarguable proof of God, I feel that I must point out that unfortantely, the Dodgers are an unarguable proof of the existence of the Devil (some might argue that the Yankees are actually the proof of (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) No, it is proof that the universe is in fact random, if not actually cruel and malevolent. Why else would such an ultimately boring game fascinate so many? (including me) (...) And if you REALLY want proof of no justice, consider the Tigers. (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) Wasn't he implicated in the Applegate scandal a few years back? Dave! FUT OT.Alleged-Humor (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) Ah, but here we have merely the inscrutability of Divine Wisdom. Presumably God foreknew that a universe with baseball, in sum totality of its joys and many despairs, would be an inherently better state of affairs than a universe without (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
|
| |
| | Re: The Origins Debate
|
|
(...) Baseball (...) Perhaps they just bounce too much.... ROSCO (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
|
