 | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Matthew Miller
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| | | (...) Yes, it's a classic Kohlberg dilemma. [1] I think you can make a good argument for _either_ response being the high moral ground, depending on your framework of morality. 1. In Europe, a woman was near death from a very unusual kind of cancer. (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.general, lugnet.market.theory)
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| | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | (...) Weeeelllll... I know I'm walking into the same old debate as before! But it seems SO clear cut to me. In my opinion Heinz doesn't have the right to the drug. If this drug really truly is somehting Heinz is incapable of inventing for himself, (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | | | (...) [2] (...) Agreed. No moral situation here. (possibly an ethical one, but that's a different debate, and this case doesn't have enough information to make an ethical judgement). However, I'm fairly certain I can make a good case for the (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Jeremy Sproat
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| | | | | | | (...) Arguably, Heinz could come up with some kind of spiced tomato sauce, and sell vast amounts of it so that others may enjoy spearing it all over their fried potatoes, pizza dough, and spaghetti noodles. *THEN* he could afford the $4,000... (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | (...) Old debates die hard :) (...) I certainly agree here. Heinz doesn't appear to me to have any right to the drug; and neither does his wife. Rights don't really seem to dictate proper ownership in this case other than the druggist. After all, (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) No, it was to increase the level of information in the market place. I WANT sellers to dig out rare sets, and I want buyers to buy them. If they are blowing their money on stuff they can get at retail, they're not spending their money on rare (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | | | | | | Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37EFDE75.DDFD13...ger.net... (...) actions... let's (...) Larry, you know, I read your message about how low some of the auction prices in SeriousCollector are. As a result I went to (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Ulterior motives (was Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) This was troll bait, right? :-) You've seen me try to raise prices before. (cf the great blue train window thing) Realise also that I suspect that the great acquisition mode phase may be ending for me... my house is bursting and I am starting (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Josh Spaulding
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| | | | | | | | | | I don't want to dwell on the morality topic, since it seems that it's being beaten into the ground. But I will say this: I think that the highest form of morality stems from compassion - the ability to experience the suffering of others as if it (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I think the issue Libertarians have with government regulation about standards, quality, and labels is not with intent. We're willing to grant, for the sake of argument, good intent(1). Our issue is just that they don't, by and large, actually (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance —Josh Spaulding
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I think competitive improvement requires the postulate of an informed, active consumer base, which does not seem descriptive of America today. Frankly, when I see ads for "Pumpernickel limestone shampoo - the tingle tells you it's better than (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Granted. No one said it would be easy to move in the direction I'd like to see us move in. But in turn I'm sure you'd admit that the potential is there for the regeneration of such a base. (...) I'll claim that there are some examples but not (...) (25 years ago, 29-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance —Josh Spaulding
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Of course there's a potential, but such a regeneration would not be in the interest of manufacturers, so I wouldn't count on them to foster it by providing the public with balanced information unless required by law. This is part of my problem (...) (25 years ago, 29-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I heard a good one a few weeks ago... Three engineers, a mechanical engineer, a chemical engineer, and a Microsoft engineer, are riding in a car when the engine quits. The mechanical engineer suggests a rebuild of the engine. The chemical (...) (25 years ago, 29-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Do you think morality is internal (only I can determine if I am moral), or external (you can determine if I am moral)? If external, then who defines morality? (...) I disagree. Only the druggist can determine if he has a moral obligation to (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance —Josh Spaulding
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Reading some of your posts, I see that you carefully differentiate self-defined "morals" and socially defined "ethics." The problem I have with this dichotomy is that it is impotent (no "r") to avoid imposing one's own morality on others. If I (...) (25 years ago, 29-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Of course people develop their moral code. But no two people are going to have the same code, which means that no one individual can know wether someone else is acting morally. (I took some leaps of logic there) (...) I do not claim to not (...) (25 years ago, 29-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | (...) All of these are irrelevant to the main thrust. The druggist's motivations for not selling are not important. (...) Why? (...) Allow me to draw a parallel hypothetical situation. There is a natural disaster, and several people are left in a (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) Hmm... Important to Hienz's claim on the drug? No. They're not. Hienz has no claim to the drug if he hasn't acquired it from the druggist in some manner (trading/selling/performing services/etc.. not threats or beatings, etc., though) Is it (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | (...) The druggist is clearly and willfully taking action that is harmful to a human life. If you consider that immoral, then it is immoral. His motivations do not matter. Even if he is (under his moral code) preventing a greater evil (for example, (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, I think my view on it is that it's required in order to be moral... We don't 'require' people to be moral, but if they're not, then people like me call them jerks. They're not unjust, per se; they are certainly within their rights, but (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | (...) Hmm. I think there is a fundamental difference in the way we determine morality. See below. (...) How can I, or you, or anyone, accurately judge someone's intent? It is impossible to empirically determine intent. Actions can be observed, (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) Yep. What it really means is I can't judge you. Only you can judge you. I can do my darndest to try, and usually, in our society, we can do a pretty good job of determining someone else's intent. We don't always get the details right, and (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | (...) Determining intent can only be inferential, not observational. This makes judging by intent inherently less impartial than judging by actions. (...) I do not trust myself to judge anyone's intent.(1) I am not omniscient, and I will never know (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, to the absolutest of my theory, yes. I have no grounds for assuming anyone else's intent, and have no basis for proof. But the point is that it usually does seem to work. That is, usually, I can judge someone's intent fairly well. But (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | (...) Doesn't have to be taken to an extreme. If I happen to see a total stranger kill someone, I know what has happened, but not why. (...) Sorry, being unclear in the interests of brevity(1). You were saying (paraphrase warning!) that you felt (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | (...) And that's really why I feel the need to judge by intent. If I see one person kill another, I can see the action, but not the intent. Perhaps the killer had no idea he was killing, or whatever. His intent could concievably be such that his (...) (25 years ago, 29-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | (...) Hmm. Ok, fair. That's a difference in how we define morality. To me, morality is a matter of the conscious mind. Unless, of course, we're defining the subconscious differently, but I'm >not< going there! ;-) (...) Ah yes, but that doesn't mean (...) (25 years ago, 29-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) :) yeah, the subconscious is tough... (...) Ok, I can see that... Hmmm... maybe it would be fairer to say that the law can be 'bad'. Not *morally* bad, but ill-concieved. In other words, a law becomes less and less 'good' (ethically good, you (...) (25 years ago, 30-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | (...) So in your schema, right to property is more important than right to life. (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Neither more nor less, because they are not actually different things. Right to life and right to property are the same thing. ALL rights are property rights in my schema. The "right to life" as I see it is my right to dispose of my life as I (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) This is why Libertarianism breaks down because mean people suck. Not all people are good. If *everyone* had a good heart, people would be able to respect property rights AND each other's needs as well. But as it is, a heartless Bunghole is (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) As with all these little morality puzzles, we don't have enough facts to conclude that. For all we know, Heinz skipped buying health insurance to cover the drug because he wanted to go bowling, or because he needed the money to pay his last (...) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Even you are a little squeamish about the druggist's behaviour: "If I were he I'd work out a payment plan blah blah blah" And yet you cannot find anything morally wrong in it, either. It all works out logically (why he is justified to (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) There is a difference between holding and even publicising an opinion that the druggist is a slug, and using force to require him to sell the drug. There is nothing wrong with that opinion even being wrong (in the examples Larry stated of (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | I think what this is really about is how highly do you rate property rights. Larry seems to be arguing that the right to property superceeds everything else. It's impossible to say what's right in this hypothetical situation, since so much depends (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Not exactly. More like it IS everything else. Any right I recognise, ultimately, is a property right or can be reduced to one. (...) Well, here we go round the mulberry bush again, :-) but as I stated in the past, I don't accept the above as a (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | | (...) Mayhap I'm confused. How is this a moral dilema? James (URL) (25 years ago, 27-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Ulterior motives (was Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | (...) Ditto. (...) I haven't been paying attention lately(1), but for quite a while I was watching SC and Ebay prices, and they were generally comparable. Within a few percent, in fact. Although I will confess that I tossed (IMO) extraneous data (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.market.theory)
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| | | | | | Re: Ulterior motives (was Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) Here's a data point for you There have been two 6990s auctioned off on SC. The first one had a box but had some missing pieces. The condition of the set is pristine, almost brand new. All the missing parts save one control stand and 4 1x2 (...) (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.market.theory)
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| | | | | | Re: Ulterior motives (was Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —Derick Bulkley
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| | | | | (...) Oh, don't count us out yet, Larry! We've got a lot of new member-friendly features coming soon, not to mention a bunch of great Lego... like five new blue hopper cars :-) Derick (25 years ago, 28-Sep-99, to lugnet.market.theory)
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| | | | | | Re: Ulterior motives (was Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set —James Brown
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| | | | (...) <snipped monorail & boat examples> (...) Hmm. Neat. The castle sets currently there seem to be fetching about equivalent prices to what I'm used to seeing. The 6009 is higher on SC, and the 6044 and 6038 are higher on e-bay, but they're all in (...) (25 years ago, 30-Sep-99, to lugnet.market.theory)
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