| |
Published in the DoG Street Journal, a student paper at the College of William
and Mary:
http://www.dogstreetjournal.com/story/2282
Some highlights are:
“One look at a child’s Lego village will show the company’s disdain for an
integrated society.”
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
“Such racial profiling is appalling...”
“Instead of addressing the contrasting themes, it chooses to ignore them.”
-Rob A>
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
It’s always enlightening just how blind people can be. Either that author from
my POV, or me from the POV of the author. Wow. Are we *sure* this isn’t satire?
| |
“One look at a child’s Lego village will show the company’s disdain for an
integrated society.”
|
Yes, he mentions that all the LEGO minifigs are “aryan yellow”. Now *that’s* a
new one to me - is that one of the official Crayola colors?
| |
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
|
Yet he praises the fact that there are now black minifigs in the NBA sets. And
doesn’t, evidently, see this as stereotyping.
| |
“Instead of addressing the contrasting themes, it chooses to ignore them.”
|
Which the author *seems* to imply is a good thing. Sigh...
I’m still trying to convince my son that boys can be pilots too - his first
LEGO plane had a female pilot, and from that point on all the pilots or drivers
of his vehicals have always been female. This includes almost any sumobot I
build (Ben gets to pick the drivers, I just build the hardware). Yes, curse LEGO
for their racist, sexist views that are spoiling the next generation... excuse
me, my book fire needs tending.
--
Brian Davis
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
| |
Published in the DoG Street Journal, a student paper at the College of
William and Mary:
http://www.dogstreetjournal.com/story/2282
Some highlights are:
“One look at a child’s Lego village will show the company’s disdain for an
integrated society.”
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
“Such racial profiling is appalling...”
“Instead of addressing the contrasting themes, it chooses to ignore them.”
|
The column has some good points. Too bad it suffers from lazy journalism.
Like describing traditional minifigs as “aryan yellow”. Aryan. Yellow. Yeah,
right.
And the columnist missed out on some other good discussion points:
1. Lego has recently introduced a system of racial minifigs. This isn’t a
matter of “more” racial figs, it’s a whole new thing. Forced by the reality of
having black and white characters in the Star Wars and Harry Potter themes.
2. Duplo figures have a long history of being racially mixed.
3. Every minifig is a stereotype, regardless of race. The supplied stories (ie,
what comes in the sets) are truly limited in scope and can’t possibly model a
balanced view of reality.
Here’s a challenge: what toy (system) would fit their requirements?
Steve
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
This is a humor piece, right?
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Erik Olson wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
This is a humor piece, right?
|
lol-- the ultimate smack critique:-)
I weep for the future.
JOHN
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Erik Olson wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
This is a humor piece, right?
|
lol-- the ultimate smack critique:-)
I weep for the future.
JOHN
|
I suggest every single fan send them an email. I just did.
What a bunch of kooks.
Steven Weiser
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Steven D. Weiser wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Erik Olson wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
This is a humor piece, right?
|
lol-- the ultimate smack critique:-)
I weep for the future.
JOHN
|
I suggest every single fan send them an email. I just did.
What a bunch of kooks.
Steven Weiser
|
Here is the email I sent to the boneheads.
Steven Weiser
Subj: Boycott Lego
Date: 1/25/2005 11:09:16 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: WsrSteven
To: letters@dogstreetjournal.com
First, there is no plural for Lego.
Second, are you people thinking with a full deck?
The entire purpose for the yellow minifig heads was so that no one race was
represented. Where the hell did you come up with the name “aryan yellow”? If
they all had white skin and blonde hair, and blue eyes, then I would question
this. The new colored heads represent real people or ficticious characters from
the movies.
I am Jewish and proud of it, 42 years of age, and I still play with Lego.
And yes, I have met plenty of people of all races who also play with Lego with
no thoughts that the company is racist.
Never for one moment did I ever think that the Lego Company was racist.
You need to get your heads out of your asses. I’m sick and tired of all this
“political correct” BS.
Steven D. Weiser
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
Holy s***. Youve got to be kidding. I KNEW this would happen eventually, what
with the introduction of the flesh figs. But to think they’d target the themes
themselves is really weird. Now, I don’t know the half of set designing, but I
suspect they only go for the ‘stereotypical’ simply because kids’d like to play
with it. I read a recent report somewhere about how school authorities were
banning a story about a dolphin so that kids living near the sea wouldn’t feel
bad. I’m afraid this isn’t the end of ‘Political correctness’.
Legoswami Samarth
FUT set to ot.debate
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Steven D. Weiser wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Erik Olson wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
This is a humor piece, right?
|
lol-- the ultimate smack critique:-)
I weep for the future.
JOHN
|
I suggest every single fan send them an email. I just did.
What a bunch of kooks.
|
Admire the sentiment Steve, but you might be (if Eric is right and it IS a
humour piece) playing right into their hands... they’ll collect the
best/goofiest mail and publish it for the laughs.
Also, (referring to your next post) the use of profanity in letters that are
trying to influence opinion may not be the best approach. Especially if it’s at
all abusive, it will get the whole message filtered right out.
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Samarth Moray wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
Holy s***. Youve got to be kidding. I KNEW this would happen eventually, what
with the introduction of the flesh figs. But to think they’d target the
themes themselves is really weird. Now, I don’t know the half of set
designing, but I suspect they only go for the ‘stereotypical’ simply because
kids’d like to play with it. I read a recent report somewhere about how
school authorities were banning a story about a dolphin so that kids living
near the sea wouldn’t feel bad. I’m afraid this isn’t the end of ‘Political
correctness’.
|
Well, let’s maintain some perspective, shall we? This is a campus newspaper,
rather than a mainstream AP publication, right? And the article in question is
an opinion column, as opposed to a work of research journalism. Honestly, I
have a hard time believing that it’s even a serious piece. Do you get as upset
when other “opinion journalists” such as Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter makes
utterly preposterous claims?
Besides, if you’re interested in critiquing journalistic excellence, your time
would be better served in examining why, for example, a single phony memo in an
otherwise factual report is more important than the actual story of a terrible
president who used his daddy’s connections to avoid military service. Or
perhaps why the firing of four news producers is of greater historical
significance than the revelation that a quarter-trillion dollar campaign to
murder 100,000 civilians was based on nothing.
I’ll be interested to learn where your sense of journalistic outrage leads you.
Dave!
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
Actually, I think there are some good issues that are raised in this article.
| |
Some highlights are:
“One look at a child’s Lego village will show the company’s disdain for an
integrated society.”
|
There is some validity to the argument that yellow more closely represents
light-skinned people. The author oversteps by calling it “Aryan yellow” to be
sure, but this toy *was* made in a racially isolated part of the world. A
factos that is important but that was not considered was the limited color
pallette of Lego at the time, of course.
| |
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
|
The place this is most evident is the releasing of the NBA sets with black
figures. I know these represent real people and that is why the decision was
made - but it ruined the idea that yellow could represent people of color. Now
we have brown heads for NBA players and one themed set, I believe. I loved a
recent MOC that used the NBA players as pirates, but this was unofficial. So,
yes, as a company, Lego has stereotyped the brown heads as basketball players
and nothing else.
| |
“Such racial profiling is appalling...”
|
I agree that the Ninja and Orient Expedition themes and particularly their
“backstories” are racially insensitive.
“In an effort to avoid the conflicts of religious persecution, none of Lego’s
sets involve themes of religious nature”
And I think this is a shame. Playmobil makes an Advent calendar that one can
build a nativity diorama with - Lego makes one that you can make into a robot :P
Why not make an Advent calendar with religious symbols (actually, I think last
year’s actually included an angel, which surprised me)? A menorah set might be
a good idea too if the market supported it.
Should Lego, as a company, address these issues? Maybe. It might behoove them
to consider these kinds of things so as to appeal to a wider market or to at
least appear to be “with it” and aware of culture and change.
Anyway, I didn’t think the article was all bad. Simply accepting things “out of
the box” is bad and I’m always glad to see things reasonably questioned.
--
Thomas Main
thomasmain@myrealbox.com
|
|
| |
| |
I’ll be interested to learn where your sense of journalistic outrage leads
you.
|
Well, youre gonna have to choose another topic, I can’t lie and say I’m from the
US, because I’m Indian. I’d rather not comment on matters I have
partial/incomplete knowledge of in the first place; that’d be asking for
trouble. So I’ll be diplomatic and not comment on this one. And indeed, if I
*did* comment, I’d be hijacking this thread.
Legoswami Samarth
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Thomas Main wrote:
| |
| |
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
|
The place this is most evident is the releasing of the NBA sets with black
figures. I know these represent real people and that is why the decision was
made - but it ruined the idea that yellow could represent people of color.
Now we have brown heads for NBA players and one themed set, I believe. I
loved a recent MOC that used the NBA players as pirates, but this was
unofficial. So, yes, as a company, Lego has stereotyped the brown heads as
basketball players and nothing else.
|
Keep in mind that caucasian NBA players were also included in flesh tone:
Steve Nash (Canada)
Dirk Nowitzki (Germany)
Pau Gasol (Spain)
Tony Kukoc (Croatia)
... so I don’t believe the stereotype is in the NBA figs (although, they were a
bad idea from inception. Less than half of the NBA licensed figs are still
wearing the same uniform, and some are on their second new team already - what a
mess).
The real problem came with Lando and the SW line in general, IMHO. Lando should
have been a yellow fig, to match the rest of the line at that time, and to
reinforce the idea that yellow was not synonymous with caucasian.
-nk
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Thomas Main wrote:
| |
| |
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
|
The place this is most evident is the releasing of the NBA sets with black
figures. I know these represent real people and that is why the decision was
made - but it ruined the idea that yellow could represent people of color.
Now we have brown heads for NBA players and one themed set, I believe. I
loved a recent MOC that used the NBA players as pirates, but this was
unofficial. So, yes, as a company, Lego has stereotyped the brown heads as
basketball players and nothing else.
|
Well we do have a brown head in Star Wars sets for Lando and they are used in
the new Spider Man sets as well, so they have broken way from just the NBA sets.
But I do understand your point.
jt
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
To be honest, I was most upset by the title. Boycott? The article didn’t even
call for a boycott. Nor do I think that the article’s voracity warranted one
even in the eyes of the author. It seemed like the title was just meant to be
attention grabbing. The points it raises are valid, but, I would argue, trivial.
And Wild West sets? They came out close to a decade ago now.
Personally, I think that level of realism is only applicable to a few lines;
particularly World City and Trains, which are more “day-in-the-life” models.
Things like Alpha Team, Harry Potter, Adventurers, Knight’s Kingdom, etc, are
all fantasy playthemes. They’re not MEANT to reflect “real life”. And (sadly)
Lego is venturing more and more into these fantasy worlds, and less and less
into the “real” themes. Not that I don’t want fantasy-themes! But their
departure from “normal” themes is a bit disheartening. No houses, stores,
schools, churches, malls, fix-it-shops, restaurants, etc. Only fire stations,
police stations, and train stations. And occasionally “Bad Guy HQ!”.
DaveE
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
| |
Published in the DoG Street Journal, a student paper at the College of
William and Mary:
http://www.dogstreetjournal.com/story/2282
Some highlights are:
“One look at a child’s Lego village will show the company’s disdain for an
integrated society.”
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
“Such racial profiling is appalling...”
“Instead of addressing the contrasting themes, it chooses to ignore them.”
-Rob A>
|
Hm...well, first off, I think this guy Dan gots issues.
1) He didn’t do enough research to know how to say “Lego”..ie. “Legos”...
2) “Aryan Yellow”...that’s a leap of faith. White folks are no more yellow than
black/African-American folks are yellow. There goes that thing called
“imagination”... and has he even looked at the new sets (Spid
3) If he had done his checking up on Orient Expedition, the bad guy isn’t the
Marahaja, it’s Sam Sinister... the Marahaja is just in cahoots with him, so
we’ve got “aryan orientals” helping good guys (as guides) and bad guys... so,
how is that racist?
4) as Dave E says...how does the title work into his “article”?
-Scott
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Brian Davis wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
It’s always enlightening just how blind people can be. Either that author
from my POV, or me from the POV of the author. Wow. Are we *sure* this isn’t
satire?
| |
“One look at a child’s Lego village will show the company’s disdain for an
integrated society.”
|
Yes, he mentions that all the LEGO minifigs are “aryan yellow”. Now *that’s*
a new one to me - is that one of the official Crayola colors?
| |
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
|
Yet he praises the fact that there are now black minifigs in the NBA sets.
And doesn’t, evidently, see this as stereotyping.
| |
“Instead of addressing the contrasting themes, it chooses to ignore them.”
|
Which the author *seems* to imply is a good thing. Sigh...
I’m still trying to convince my son that boys can be pilots too - his
first LEGO plane had a female pilot, and from that point on all the pilots or
drivers of his vehicals have always been female. This includes almost any
sumobot I build (Ben gets to pick the drivers, I just build the hardware).
Yes, curse LEGO for their racist, sexist views that are spoiling the next
generation... excuse me, my book fire needs tending.
|
Brian, go get him an Alpha Team iceblade--Dash (male) is the pilot. Same with
the Police helicopter..
-Scott
|
|
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Samarth Moray wrote:
| |
| |
I’ll be interested to learn where your sense of journalistic outrage leads
you.
|
Well, youre gonna have to choose another topic, I can’t lie and say I’m from
the US, because I’m Indian. I’d rather not comment on matters I have
partial/incomplete knowledge of in the first place; that’d be asking for
trouble. So I’ll be diplomatic and not comment on this one. And indeed, if I
*did* comment, I’d be hijacking this thread.
Legoswami Samarth
|
Samarth,
I’ve got to commend you on your level-headed maturity, especially for your young
age, not just here, but in all things you’ve been posting on.
Send me your address privately-- I’ll send you a few Han Solo’s in
carbonite--free of charge.
Scott Lyttle
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, James Trobaugh wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Thomas Main wrote:
| |
| |
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
|
The place this is most evident is the releasing of the NBA sets with black
figures. I know these represent real people and that is why the decision
was made - but it ruined the idea that yellow could represent people of
color. Now we have brown heads for NBA players and one themed set, I
believe. I loved a recent MOC that used the NBA players as pirates, but
this was unofficial. So, yes, as a company, Lego has stereotyped the brown
heads as basketball players and nothing else.
|
Well we do have a brown head in Star Wars sets for Lando and they are used in
the new Spider Man sets as well, so they have broken way from just the NBA
sets. But I do understand your point.
jt
|
I think the official line is that anytime something is licensed, then the
flesh-colored figures can be used. If you look at the Ferrari sets, the crew is
yellow, but Barichello and Shumacher are flesh-colored. Spider-Man, Harry
Potter, and Star Wars are all licensed products, just like Ferrari.
Now, I don’t know about Duplo...
But I’m of the personal belief that anybody can destroy anything if they want
to--people read what they want into anything if they are incensed enough.
Just look at what’s going on in Lee County, Florida...
-Scott Lyttle
|
|
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Samarth Moray wrote:
| |
| |
I’ll be interested to learn where your sense of journalistic outrage leads
you.
|
Well, youre gonna have to choose another topic, I can’t lie and say I’m from
the US, because I’m Indian. I’d rather not comment on matters I have
partial/incomplete knowledge of in the first place; that’d be asking for
trouble. So I’ll be diplomatic and not comment on this one. And indeed, if I
*did* comment, I’d be hijacking this thread.
|
Hey, you’re not one of those non-native speakers of English, are you? Jeez, I
wish you guys would wear distinctive hats, or something, so that we can tell you
from those of us lucky enough to live under the Annointed Rule of the His Mighty
Righteousness George W. Bush.
I’ve said it before, and I’m apparently inclined to say it again: so many
non-native speakers of English on LUGNET (and in the world, I’d guess)
speak/write much better than most of my American-born coworkers.
Anyway, I still think that the article is close to irrelevant, since it’s a
small opinion piece in a college newspaper (even if it does turn out to be
serious).
Dave!
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
| |
Published in the DoG Street Journal, a student paper at the College of
William and Mary:
http://www.dogstreetjournal.com/story/2282
Some highlights are:
“One look at a child’s Lego village will show the company’s disdain for an
integrated society.”
”...minorities are often stereotyped.”
“Such racial profiling is appalling...”
“Instead of addressing the contrasting themes, it chooses to ignore them.”
-Rob A>
|
Wow. yet another poor, deluded schmoo in need of a life. I feel sorry for this
fellow. I mean one has to have a pretty lousy outlook on life to be spending it
trying to find racism in the commercial world and stil manage to miss so
blatantly. Some people read way to much into product lines.. In fact, most
“racism” and “sexism” which is found in commercial products is no such thing,
rather it is more likely to be an oversight. There are exceptions of course,
Victoria’s Secret and a few others with extremely specific hiring policies and
limited product lines (Victoria’s Secret has a publicly posted Female only
hiring policy and a product line which doesn’t extend beyond something like a
size 12), yet few to no attacks are levied at them. One could even mention a
truly cheesy prejudice such as UPS has against beards. I myself was turned down
by UPS for an IT (non customer facing) position because I have a beard.
|
|
| |
Hello!
Political correctness leads to silliness.
Bye
Jojo
|
|
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Samarth Moray wrote:
| |
| |
I’ll be interested to learn where your sense of journalistic outrage leads
you.
|
Well, youre gonna have to choose another topic, I can’t lie and say I’m from
the US, because I’m Indian. I’d rather not comment on matters I have
partial/incomplete knowledge of in the first place; that’d be asking for
trouble. So I’ll be diplomatic and not comment on this one. And indeed, if I
*did* comment, I’d be hijacking this thread.
|
Hey, you’re not one of those non-native speakers of English, are you? Jeez,
I wish you guys would wear distinctive hats, or something, so that we can
tell you from those of us lucky enough to live under the Annointed Rule of
the His Mighty Righteousness George W. Bush.
I’ve said it before, and I’m apparently inclined to say it again: so many
non-native speakers of English on LUGNET (and in the world, I’d guess)
speak/write much better than most of my American-born coworkers.
Anyway, I still think that the article is close to irrelevant, since it’s a
small opinion piece in a college newspaper (even if it does turn out to be
serious).
Dave!
|
English is an official language of India, has been for many, many years. That’s
‘native’, as in ‘native speaker’ But, I aside from the minor nitpick, I agree
100%!
Tim (Smith)
|
|
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Timothy P. Smith wrote:
| |
English is an official language of India, has been for many, many years.
|
Actually, Hindi is the official language of India, but English is spoken just as
much here.
Legoswami Samarth
|
|
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Samarth Moray wrote:
| |
| |
I’ll be interested to learn where your sense of journalistic outrage leads
you.
|
Well, youre gonna have to choose another topic, I can’t lie and say I’m from
the US, because I’m Indian. I’d rather not comment on matters I have
partial/incomplete knowledge of in the first place; that’d be asking for
trouble. So I’ll be diplomatic and not comment on this one. And indeed, if I
*did* comment, I’d be hijacking this thread.
Legoswami Samarth
|
Wow! Yours is the most reasonable post I can remember reading in .debate. Thank
you for staying on topic and not feeding the troll. You hit the ball out of the
park! (American baseball expression)
-Erik
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Erik Olson wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
This is a humor piece, right?
|
lol-- the ultimate smack critique:-)
I weep for the future.
|
I meant, it would not be out of place in The Onion. Headlines: “Lego Minifigs
Aryan Yellow! Spoon Violence Follows Knife Ban!”
-Erik
|
|
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
| |
Hey, you’re not one of those non-native speakers of English, are you? Jeez,
|
No, I’m 100%, born, bred, living Asian Indian (to distinguish from Native
American tribes)
| |
I wish you guys would wear distinctive hats
|
Wouldn’t that be discrimination? ;-)
| |
Anyway, I still think that the article is close to irrelevant, since it’s a
small opinion piece in a college newspaper (even if it does turn out to be
serious).
|
Serious or not, irrelevent or not, the fact is that people will read it and
their general impressions about lego (or ‘legos’) will be tarnished. Unless of
course, they are smart enough and can see through the inconsistencies that were
pointed out in this thread.
Legoswami Samarth
|
|
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Erik Olson wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Erik Olson wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Rob Antonishen wrote:
This is a humor piece, right?
|
lol-- the ultimate smack critique:-)
I weep for the future.
|
I meant, it would not be out of place in The Onion. Headlines: “Lego Minifigs
Aryan Yellow! Spoon Violence Follows Knife Ban!”
|
Except that those headlines are funny. This piece is pathetic.
The bottom line is that the quality of writing and thinking displayed in this
paper is worthy of a 12 year old, satire or no. William & Mary? Pleh. I weep.
JOHN
|
|
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Erik Olson wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Samarth Moray wrote:
| |
| |
I’ll be interested to learn where your sense of journalistic outrage leads
you.
|
Well, youre gonna have to choose another topic, I can’t lie and say I’m from
the US, because I’m Indian. I’d rather not comment on matters I have
partial/incomplete knowledge of in the first place; that’d be asking for
trouble. So I’ll be diplomatic and not comment on this one. And indeed, if I
*did* comment, I’d be hijacking this thread.
Legoswami Samarth
|
Wow! Yours is the most reasonable post I can remember reading in .debate.
Thank you for staying on topic and not feeding the troll. You hit the ball
out of the park! (American baseball expression)
|
Yeah, I guess I can see how a discussion of trivial outrage inspired by a
perceived failure of journalism is completely distinct from serious outrage
inspired by an actual, systemic failure of journalism. Sorry to blur these two
obviously unrelated issues.
Good call, Erik!
Dave!
|
|
| |
> <http://www.dogstreetjournal.com/story/2282>
Wow, Just wow.
The author of the paper didn't do much research, that's for sure! Aryan yellow?
LOL!
I'm not the biggest fan of LEGO since You-Know-What-Issue-I'm-Talking-About, but
to call LEGO racist is way off target. LEGO does have some issues with gender
and race representation in their product lines, but not that serious. And I'm
not saying in any way they are discriminating. I'm, sure it's mainly a target
market thing.
Anyway, the author has invented a funny color... Aryan-Yellow. With
Bluish-Gray, Reddish-Brown, we only need funny names for red, blue, white and
black to complete the palette!
Any suggestions?
How about Communist-Red ?
Terry
|
|
|
