Subject:
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Re: Lobsters and Frogs debate...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.pirates
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Date:
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Tue, 1 Apr 2003 03:53:31 GMT
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Viewed:
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2400 times
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Gentlemen,
I've been watching this debate develop for a while... forgive my lengthy and
belated commentary.
In lugnet.pirates, Alex Polimeni writes:
> >
> > But why should he dash out? It'll bee just like you running away if not.
>
> Dash out- here is why. i know that i dont stand a chance in a ship-to-ship
> broadside-to-braodside action with Port Briques ships. so, i dash out to sea
> with them on my tail, leave em behind, poke my head out ever once and a while,
> taking pot shots at them, and dissapear again. breaking up Port Briques fleet,
> demoralizing the crews, etc. its a perfect plan.
Ahh, dangerous words, those: "perfect plan"... a change in wind or bad luck
on a reef and its bad business for the British. Though if our infamous
friend USS Constitution taught us anything, it's that kedging can be a
cruiser's best friend.
> > > >
> > > > If you've got vessels that small, what do intend raiding Port Brique for?
> > > > You're not going to carry off much in bathtubs with sails! ;-)
> > >
> > > You continue to forget the efficiency of the british. I can pull off a lot of
> > > things-and your huge shore batteries cant even hit me in the dark!
> > > You also forget my personal fighting strategys..one of em: dont lock into
> > > battle directly.
I'm rather certain Mr. Dulin was completely unaware of the Hornblocker book
of strategies... actually, that one is rather ironic given our chosen
building medium -- "don't lock into..."
Best not to forget that ships can ground at night. I prefer cutting out
expeditions myself, but you know your crews.
> > But it's pretty hard to get into a harbor without going through some guard
> > ships. And twenty marines in an unfilimiar armed city against
> > sixty-something marines wouldn't fare well.
I agree entirely, especially given the geography of Port Brique's
waterfront. Could be a nasty trap if Frech cavalry find alleys useful, and
horrid for lobsters if they get caught on the harborfront and French ships
open fire. Not to forget the fact that, while Royal Marines are steady,
French Infantry are... formidable. I'd cut out ships first... though guard
boats are perpetually troublesome.
> getting into the harbour? why do you think i have several officers trained in
> speaking french fluently? because, i can lure guard boats beside me-and kill or disable their crews without a noise.
Like that time the two frigate Captains surprised that French port... was it
in the East Indies? Memory fails me. But I must caution, clandestine
operations can get good crews hung, and they surely failed for a yound
Midshipman with a name similar to Hornblower, when attempting to confuse the
Spanish. And I imagine the Port Brique commanders have a good idea of the
nightly boat routine of their small port.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > twenty, at the most, marines against your Grande Army which has-how many
> > > > > soldeirs? But, your huge army can just blunder here and there, smashing and
> > > > > destroying, attemting to get me. where as my light marines can spread out,
> > > > > skirmishing and slowly wearing your army out.
Caution, I believe he's got light horse and voltigeurs. They're unpleasant,
and while Marines are steady... well, I've said it before: beware.
> > > > Those red coats are awfully easy to spot in the jungle....
> > >
> > > And blue coats are not?
> >
> > Good point. :) • Thanks.
> >
> > > they may be easy to spot, but i can
> > > spread out, as i stated. try to smoke out a guy here, a guy there-with a large
> > > force in a collum. you also seem to forget my little three-pounder freinds,
> > > which can be moved with shore partys! :)
It might be counterproductive to spread out your twenty marines out when
you're attacking. Presumably, you'd have an objective in mind... and that
leads to force concentration. Sticky issue, best worked out in planning.
And while 3-pounders are handy, horse-drawn 6-pounders weilded by the
formidable French infantry are quite unpleasant in themselves. I'd recommend
landing light and avoiding getting bogged down with a duel of field guns.
> > What about shore batteries? A small dispersed force will not do much
> > against an army.
>
> A small dispersed force is better against an army then another army. again, i
> take into acount the demoralizing effect. and shore batteries- that does not
> really matter. what is the chances they are going to hit a boat or two in the
> dead of night?
I'd have to disagree. A good British line batallion would match a good
French column any day, I assure you. A file of Marines can be fragile in the
open. Remember, three rounds a minute for those well drilled in tap-loading.
I'd put steady marines at two, considering their heavy muskets. Granted,
they'd do well with bayonets, but beware open spaces -- that would play
right into the hands of steady French infantry, horse, and artillery.
> >
> > > >
> > > > The English inciting the French to revolution! Hah!
> > >
> > > Yeah? well, your civillions are tired of being constantly killed and forced
> > > into service at Boneys will.
To be fair, that may be something of a misconception brought on by
hindsight. Much of France was swept up in Napoleon's grandeur; he was their
salvation after the Bourbons and the Jacobins -- and he was quite
successful. Keep in mind, he could continually fill armies numbering in the
hundreds of thousands, and while I find myself displeased by his casual
opinion of losing them --"What are 10 000 men to me?" -- he remained
France's icon.
> > And what did the British impressment gangs do differently?
To be fair, that may be something of a misconception as well. I've read
things suggesting Press Gangs were far less... militant than might be
thought. Often, it wasn't "beat-and-grab" so much as "threaten and usher
with clubs at the ready" ; )
> You have a good point here. but, i can trust my crews, and they are well
> trained, as all british seamen are.
> and, after a long amount at sea, a good deal of British seamen didnt mind the
> hardship. from what i know, just about all French seamen would desert if land
> was in sight.
As I said before, the commander best knows the mood of his crews.
Really tough to say on that point; French Navies were traditionally
reasonably well crewed, but after Nelson things did... change. Mainly they
suffered from blockade, and the inability to train at sea. Doesn't seem to
be a problem for the Port Brique sailors, so one must temper confidence with
caution.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > and, as the cause of my fleet, i will rip, shoot and burn all Tricolors
> > > > > i find.
> > > >
> > > > For every tricolour you burn, another two will be raised in it's place! Vive
> > > > la Port Brique!!
> > >
> > > long live port brick? pah! i can dash in and out of your villages, smashing
> > > things at will. and your huge army, trying to attack in force, will be
> > > helpless! Ha-ha!
> >
> > Villages? Isn't this on some island in the pacific?
>
> i dont even know. it is not in my orders to smash port brique yet, and frankly,
> i deal with one thing at a time.
Prudent. Very prudent, given your orders.
> > > > > Commodore Lord Sir Horatio Hornblock.
> > > >
> > > > 'Commodore Lord Sir'? Is that possible? In any case, a 'Commodore Lord Sir'
> > > > deserves a decent ship (you know, three masts, lots of cannon, decent
> > > > freeboard)! ;-)
Lord Sir... hmm... I'd be inclined to suggest 'Commodore the Lord
Horblocker, Knight of the Order of the Bath' (this is where aides tend to
prattle on about lengthy lists of accomplishments). A freeboard, eh... poor
HMS Captain... though that's half a century later.
> > >
> > > Why do i even WANT a huge ship? if i hade a huge ship, id lose my fighting
> > > prowess. you realise, big ships are stuck with battleing other big ships.
> > > little ships are better.
No jeune ecole people here! Only once did two frigates carry a French 74...
Droits de le Homme? Abysmal, my French... sad, becuase I'm Canadian... in
any case, that was Sir Edward Pellew with two Razees (Indefatigable, Amazon,
both cut down 64s) and the French vessel couldn't bring all her guns to
action because of heavy weather and the thousand-or-so French infantry
aboard. Trying to invade Ireland... sheesh!
> > Not neccisaraly. Frigates are just as speedy as smaller ships, yet pack a
> > much bigger punch. Don't forget range and strength of weapons. And larger
> > ships are much harder to sink then little flimsy cutters.
I like cutters, myself. Handy little ships... if they stay away from ships
of the line. Well, unless it happens to be Lord Cochrane and a Spanish ship
of the line. But that doesn't count for so many reasons...
> ill keep my cutters, but your points here about frigates are the exact reasons
> why i want one, and not some huge blundering three-decker.
Don't forget Victory. She sailed as handily as a 74 and was known to run
down frigates in her day. That'd be a depressed frigate Captain, I'd wager.
I don't care how many 24-pounders you stuff into a 44-gun ship, 98 guns make
for bad days.
> > I don't see very many ship-of-the-lines here on Lugnet. :)
> i can see why.
Not many of us can build them yet, though I haven't given up the dream!
There are some excellent specimens, though... Floater, Diadem, and a
Korean-built ship:
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=28052
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=21199
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=4470
> > This is an interresting little debate. Keep it up, as long as it stays civil.
Pray God so, sir!
> ill try to keep it at that.
> >
> > Coming soon... John Blockford's mercenary force
> > http://jhkruer.com/piratet.jpg
>
> Cant wait
> >
> > To aid the highest bidder, or higher thinker. Money is the biggest
> > motivator. :)
> > -JHK
Cash or cheque? Admiralty is (as ever) facing difficulties being as
omnipotent as their lordships might like.
> Ill see what prize money i can get from the Azores. maby ill hire you! :)
I must ask, what year is Mr. Hornblocker deploying in? His prevailing status
at see strikes me as post-Trafalgar (a good time to be a British sailor, as
Saumarez would attest). Reminds me of Captain Richard Dacres, of HMS
Guerrier, frigate (38), on the North American station, in 1812.
If you're ever in the North Atlantic, Brickley's Cover is not posh but it's
well suited to light craft, and it's imminently British.
Pax Britannia!
Kenneth Tam
Brickley's Cove
http://members.rogers.com/brickleyscove/Home.htm
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Lobsters and Frogs debate...
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| (...) True, True. if the seas got ugly, everything could go haywire. but, if you want to be succesful-gotta take those risks, dont you? (...) i have not forgot that, the rule about grounding. but i am not taking my ships in-well, a cutter might do, (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.pirates)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Lobsters and Frogs debate...
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| (...) Dash out- here is why. i know that i dont stand a chance in a ship-to-ship broadside-to-braodside action with Port Briques ships. so, i dash out to sea with them on my tail, leave em behind, poke my head out ever once and a while, taking pot (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.pirates)
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