 | | Re: The Brick Testament: Joshua and the Israelites Massacre Twenty-Nine Kingdoms
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Hi, Mark. (...) I also appreciate Matthew's attempts to provide a justification for the genocide depicted in my recent illustrated stories--even if I myself am of the belief that genocide can never be "justified". But I'm not sure how to take your (...) (20 years ago, 23-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Brick Testament: Joshua and the Israelites Massacre Twenty-Nine Kingdoms
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(...) And that is a very valid belief. Certainly many genocides have attempted to be justified by "what God wants" since the time of Joshua, including genocides in the name of Jesus by people who claim to be Christians. I can't think of any (...) (20 years ago, 25-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Brick Testament: Joshua and the Israelites Massacre Twenty-Nine Kingdoms
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Hi, Matthew. (...) Just to be clear, I did not mean to imply that you were necessarily providing *your* justification for the Canaanite genocide, just *a* justification, which is, I think what Stephane was asking for when he asked "How does your (...) (20 years ago, 25-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) I've noticed that too. I've also noticed similar things with people who are just "decisive". They'll form an opinion early on, then focus on facts that support the opinion, rather than base the opinion on facts. Of course it's more like a (...) (20 years ago, 25-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) I would say that it's definitely a sliding scale, because we're all guilty of that to some extent. I certainly note such tendencies in myself--I just try to keep them in check. (...) That's an interesting separate question: do atheists, by and (...) (20 years ago, 26-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Even shades of grey is a severely limitied viewpoint. It's a full-colour, 3D, fully interactive world baby. Al (20 years ago, 26-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) This behavior has been described as "confirmation bias," though I don't know if that's a formal designation or just what (URL) calls it. Either way, it speaks of the tendency to exclude data that doesn't fit one's preconceptions, and it's an (...) (20 years ago, 26-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) I'll put it this way-- I'd wish a "truly fair" God existed-- one that believed in relative morality, etc. Because, hey, it IS somewhat comforting to know that "everything's gonna be ok" or whatever. Would I want a Christian God to exist? (...) (20 years ago, 26-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) How would you define decisiveness, then? The speed at which you make a decision? I guess I'd say that if you either admit you could be wrong, or actually do change your mind frequently enough, you're less decisive. But that's just the (...) (20 years ago, 26-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality tests
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(...) Interesting. In my own experience, necessarily limited just so, I have found this quite helpful. Granted its possible for someone reasonably bright to answer the questions so as to deliver whichever type they desire, but for bonafide (...) (20 years ago, 27-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Hmm. Upon reflection, I see that I was inferring a value judgment where perhaps you didn't really imply one. It sounded, to me, as if you were making "decisiveness" a positive attribute, so that "more decisive" was more positive than "less (...) (20 years ago, 27-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality tests
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(...) To that, I have no objection. Increased empathy and understanding are always positive IMO, and if this test helps someone achieve these, then great! But in the professional world the test is actually used to evaluate people's management (...) (20 years ago, 27-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Ha! If anything I would be implying the opposite! :) I'm trying my best not to place a judgement on being "decisive", though :) (...) Heh, yeah, that's how the corporate & political worlds love to define it. All the good, none of the bad. (...) (20 years ago, 27-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Yikes! If you're suggesting that, based on my definition, I am allied with the corporate world, you have either misread my intent or I have miscommunicated it. Or perhaps I'm again misreading you. (...) Now I think perhaps you _are_ (...) (20 years ago, 27-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Ah, now there's where I'm concerned-- you added an extra qualifier to "decisive". Useful vs. Non-Useful (Dubya-esque). Each is still decisive, no? What's the 'decisive' element, minus the 'usefulness' qualification? (...) Hm. I guess that's (...) (20 years ago, 27-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) I still don't agree that "structure" and "meander" are reasonable opposites except in some interpretive, poetic sense, and in this regard they forfeit their use as scientific tools of assessment. Looking at the Myers-Briggs test, I can't (...) (20 years ago, 28-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Let's cut right to here: (...) Ok, that's fine. I think its a "pretty right" tool, you think it's 100% useless and wildly inaccurate, save for entertainment purposes. That's fine. But keep in mind that *neither* of us has proof either way, being (...) (20 years ago, 28-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) But I don't need proof; I'm not the one trying to profit off of the test. (By the way, I can't confirm the correct spelling. While researching it, I've found "Myers" and "Meyers" with about equal frequency, so I'm flummoxed) Because the owners (...) (20 years ago, 29-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Well, here's the juicy bit. It's sort of like a Christian believing in God. You can't disprove it, they can't prove it, but they have what they feel is evidence, based on "a feeling" or "an intuition": With me, I'm pretty gosh-darn indecisive. (...) (20 years ago, 29-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) This is part of the problem. You're implicitly assuming that the test is a valid instrument, and that therefore the only way to disprove the validity of the test is to take the test (which is designed not to yield falsifiable results) and make (...) (20 years ago, 29-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Not really-- because as I've said I've seen what I believe to be evidence of it yielding *correct* results. And, as I've said, it IS (for my part) falsifiable, because if I had measured someone (say) as indecisive, and they took the test and (...) (20 years ago, 29-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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-snippity- (...) -snipity- I've been following the debate for a bit here, but I'd say this is the core of the problem. Psychology is not a pure science like physics, chemistry, etc - and therefore does not operate on the same basis of scientific (...) (20 years ago, 31-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Fundamentally, I prefer the way things are : God doesn't exist, so I'm free. Free of being good for myself and others, not because some Gog decides that's the way to go. However, I'm not the only human on Earth. I cannot decide for others. So (...) (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) So is it respected, or not? The test is indeed used as a predictive tool, so if it does not function in this capacity, then it should be abandoned. But your wife is correct--the tool has no predictive power because its predictions are so (...) (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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Some of my thoughts on Meyers-Briggs: I have taken this evaluation twice (though I'm not sure if either time was the real evaluation and not just a quick evaluation). The first time I came out INTJ (though very close to the middle). The second time (...) (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) "Deliberately" general? Got any empirical proof? :) I wouldn't say it's useless at all, except insofar as it IS error prone. If its category divisions are indeed correct (I'd say they seem to be), they may indeed help us understand how people (...) (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton wrote: <snip> the (...) <snip> (...) Hate to intrude... From my experience with NB from back in college, I recall that there are usually an equal number of questions to help define each personality (...) (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Well, it was designed, was it not? And presumably the designers made deliberate choices to include some results and not others, right? QED. (...) Sure, they *may* do that, just as tea leaves *may* tell you who you're going to marry. Let me (...) (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Hmm, I've never seen it used or marketted in that way. I've mostly seen it used as a self exploration tool, and perhaps a tool for understanding one's co-workers a bit better. Frank (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Well, I have the sense that this website is somehow connected with the M/B test: (URL) the site is replete with purchasing opportunities. Similarly, this website is run by the owners of the Meyers-Briggs instrument, and they seem more than (...) (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Hm. Here's a question. Let's say that some old kook of a witch doctor uses tea leaves to predict the names of who his clients will marry (or perhaps clients ask who "friend X" will marry). The leaves predict 49,928/50,000 people's marriage (...) (20 years ago, 1-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) I'm sorry, but this hypothetical example doesn't interest me. Suppose I posit a car that delivers infinite gas mileage--wouldn't you buy it? Heck, yes! But what's the point? It's not difficult to create examples that have no relation to (...) (20 years ago, 2-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Well, I think it's results are more useful that a lame "Bob's a great guy." In some ways, I wonder if the greatest value isn't in the actual results, but in understanding what the different categories are supposed to be and that people really (...) (20 years ago, 2-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) I used to have a friend who gave herself a tarot reading at the end of each day to help her assess her day's events. If it helped her focus on her life in a productive way, then that's fine, and there's no harm in it. If the cards (ie, the (...) (20 years ago, 2-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Awesome. The only question that remains is "how much of a 'great deal' of accuracy is needed?", and to show whether or not M/B does or doesn't follow. (...) I think we've agreed on that from the start-- I would argue that while SOME job (...) (20 years ago, 2-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Personally, I would take any of these observations! :-) Bob (20 years ago, 2-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) If someone is rated as ISFJ by the test and as ENTP independantly by 100 psychologists, I'd call that pretty falsified as far as the test procedure itself. The categories themselves on the other hand, that's indeed another issue, and not (...) (20 years ago, 3-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) That would be true ONLY if the test did not allow for tweaking. Because it allows for post hoc manipulation, your objection does not apply to this shortcoming. (...) In the absence of other evidence, personal testimony is not sufficient to (...) (20 years ago, 3-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) But it only allows for manipulation by the testee, which is why I changed the example. In this case the testee might have initially TESTED as an INFP, and changed their mind to ISFJ, only to be contradicted by the 100 psychologists. Plus, (...) (20 years ago, 3-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) That's actually untrue, based upon the statement by the test's owners. (...) Before I answer, I have to ask what's the point of this hypothetical? We're back to the Infinite MPG car; it doesn't exist in reality, so comparisons between the car (...) (20 years ago, 3-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Now that's a suprise to me-- Let's say I adamantly insist I'm a P, not a J, so when I test as a J, I manipulated it to be a P. But 58 psychologists rate me as a J, so if you compare my results against EITHER P or J you're right either way? (...) (20 years ago, 3-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton wrote: **snip all of that, yours and mine** Let's start afresh, because we've veered into abstract neuro-epistemology that I don't think either of is qualified to address. However, I've been thinking about the (...) (20 years ago, 4-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Heh, phew! (...) Awesome! That's what I was looking for. That although you may not accept the CURRENT data you've seen as accurate, that you WOULD be willing to accept data, even though it runs at least SOME risk of being subjective, that (...) (20 years ago, 4-Nov-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personality test vs. Religion
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(...) Patient readers may recall the extended exchange that DaveE and I had back in November or so regarding the Myers-Briggs Testing Instrument. Suffice it to say that we were, in the end, of surprisingly like mind; I objected to the test's use in (...) (19 years ago, 28-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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