 | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha
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| | | Thank you for explaining in further detail that statement. Although I'm not sure what you mean by "We wouldn't have the perspective of knowing what came next. The accusation might potentially arise because people would not know the true magnitude of (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | (...) You're welcome. (...) Sorry, I tried to cram too much information into too few words :). I meant to say that if God had prevented the attack, we wouldn't have appreciated its sheer horrific magnitude, since we wouldn't have lived through it. (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha
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| | | | I have reconsidered, and I conclude that I feel I need to say more. I rarely have a chance to debate religion, as I come from a large Catholic family, and I'm the only one who doesn't attend church, and no one will talk about religion around me, (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | Hi Adam, and greetings from Australia! I don't believe in god. But for many years I thought I did, and came to realise that following god *must* be based on faith. As soon as any conclusive eveidence for his existence shows up, the whole christian (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha
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| | | | | | Hi Ross. I would have thought if there was any conclusive evidence for the existence of god that the christian belief wouldn't crumble, but be elevated to new heights of wisdom and logic. The statement that if god exists he, is beyond our (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | I'll try to address both Adam's and Ross's posts at the same time. (...) Exactly. I believe that too. As I mentioned in my other post, I can put my hands on a huge amount of evidence for the existence of God - all circumstantial, and none of it 100% (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha
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| | | | | | | This debate is going nowhere, and no one's opinion is going to change here. But you say there is convincing evidence that there is god, and yet I have seen any. Let me put my opinion this way. I will believe that there is a god when he shows (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | | | (...) Refer to the post I just put up: (URL) There is more, if you're interested. (...) You'll get your wish, eventually. When we die, we all face God. And at the end of the age, God will descend from Heaven in glory to set up His kingdom on earth. (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) Yes, I re-read that and realised it wasn't a good description of my belief. Perhaps closer: "...he instantly loses all his followers, *from his point of view*, because they no longer have to make any choice to follow him." (...) I agree with (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | (...) Okay. But this is what I say about the faith issue: God wants us to follow Him by faith. If you have absolute proof, you remove the faith option. (...) Okay. But the universe had to be initiated by something, and if it wasn't God, what was it? (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) If you had been spending time reviewing past debates here you'd see that this question has been dealt with before. (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | (...) Great! My prayer worked! You reconsidered! (...) Sorry to hear that. Hopefully, we can accommodate you. (By the way, I'm Protestant, so I may share some of your concerns with Catholicism.) (...) LOL. Who said that? (...) All religions are (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha
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| | | | (...) Colby from Survivor 2. (...) Mark said: The Kindness Of Man. Please, give credit where credit is due, and don't shortchange the good people. You said: All goodness derives from God, but this is a technicality in this instance :). So what did (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | (...) Ack! No, don't tell me that Reality TV has provided *anything* pithy! (...) And, remember, if God created all and is omnipotent, God also created evil and possesses the power to destroy it at any time. Evil is not merely the absence of good. (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | | (...) See (URL) for a start. Incidentally, Jesus was God in the flesh, and we have the recorded history right in the Bible. <snip> (...) Possibly so. But then the hijackers would be making the accusations. God loves even them so much that He does (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | | (...) Sorry, that's not recorded history. It's a literary chronicle--"history" as we know it today was part of the Greco-Roman tradition, not the Judaeo-Christian one. That, and the synoptic gospels have significant problems innate to their (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | | | (...) I'm not clear on the difference. Anyway, the Gospels were written in Greek, from within the Roman Empire. (...) These are faith issues. They can't be "proven" either way. (...) If the books were divinely inspired, then they aren't embellished. (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | I neglected to respond to this... (...) God did not create evil. Evil is indeed the absence of good, just as cold is the absence of heat, and centrifugal force is the absence of centripetal force. --Ian (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | (...) Sorry, if God created everything, God created evil--at least, the capacity for it. Are you implying there are limits to the power of God? Also, good and evil are subjective concepts, arrived at by consensus--though in dogmatic (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | (...) This is the key distinction. God created beings with free will, but free will necessitates the possibility of rebellion. God created the universe with the possibility of evil. This is not the same thing as creating evil itself. He allows it, (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | The god debate again... sigh^h^h^h^h yawn —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) You're wandering into the "Can god make a stone so large he cannot lift it?" thicket. Here there be tygers. I note you did not address my previous post on "Why this discussion now? Did you do your homework before starting?" but just ignored (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh^h^h^h^h yawn —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | (...) Indeed. I would say that there is no answer to this question, because it's a logical contradiction. God can lift anything He wants, and God can make anything He wants. But God wouldn't set out with the express purpose of making a stone too big (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | (...) Oh dear. Let me start over. God is good, and there is no evil or sin in him. God created everything, so therefore everything reflects God's goodness in some way. People doing good things don't do it because of their innate goodness; they (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Jason J. Railton
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| | | | | (...) So, here's how I like to see it. If God started everything off, what if He let it play out - what if He wasn't sticking His oar in every five minutes? What if we really do have free will, for a start? Who wants to live in a universe where you (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Ian Warfield
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| | | | | | (...) God reserves the right to engineer events, but He makes sure to allow us to maintain our free will. Anyway it's God's universe; He can do what He wants with it. (...) You have that choice. The tree of knowledge was placed in the Garden of Eden (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) You're not getting it. Maybe there were 10^37 (or whatever) universal incarnations that had nothing like us occur. That's fine. You're arguing that a probability that doesn't actually have any bearing on our likelihood, does. I'm sorry, but (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Yes indeed. Another way to approach it is to point out that we (life in general) weren't running around looking for a universe to populate and were lucky enough to find this one; we (again, life in general) arose within this universe because (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Might that be because you don't play? That's *usually* my reason for not winning, although once in a while (when the expected value (of the net present value of the win after taxes) >100% of the cost to play) it is because the gods don't like (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | The Origins Debate —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | (...) It's not nearly so cranky as many of the others, but it's still largely based on anti-logic. Why can't it be the Hindu gods? Or why can't the Hare Krishnas be right? (...) But the physical state of the universe was quite different. We're in a (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | (...) <snip> Excellent refutation. If Ian had been doing his homework reading what has been said here before maybe he wouldn't be posting essentially the same tired stuff all over again that we've all already heard. If people want to take comfort in (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | (...) Yeh, well, it's never for me so much as for the spectators. :D (...) My only search for common ground is to get the agreement that yes, belief in religion is a matter of faith and is therefore unprovable positively *or* negatively. My aim, if (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Spot on. I have no beef with religion or any other dogma except when it obstructs progress. (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Kirby Warden
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| | | | | | (...) I think that this is the stance I have been leaning towards the past year or so. I feel rather lonely in church these days as I no longer "see" as the majority of the congregation seems to. Blind faith ("dogma" I suppose) seems to work at (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | (...) As a Christian, I agree that if many so-called Christian leaders had their way we'd all be almost Amish. As I've said before, I believe it's because most Christians are guilt-motivated. They really don't know what to think and as such are (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Ian Warfield
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| | | | (...) If that's a backhanded concession of any sort, I'll take it. :) Another good site is www.swordandspirit.com. It's chock full of humor - about as far from cranky as you can yet. (...) I don't see this. Can you cite an example? (...) At this (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) I don't understand this argument. Everything science proposes is theory (hypothesis, actually). It never goes beyond that. Everything science determines is a tentative explanation, pending better. It is not valid to claim that "evolution is (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Ian Warfield
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| | | | (...) That's exactly what I meant. It wasn't an argument; I was just restating the fact that evolution is, indeed, a theory. (...) I wasn't claiming that it necessarily would. I was merely guarding against the possibility of anyone claiming it as (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) To be more precise, evolution is a fact, just as gravity is a fact. The Darwinian model of natural selection is an evolutionary theory--that is, a theory that hopes to explain the process by which the fact of evolution occurs. (...) But no one (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Ian Warfield
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| | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes: <snip> (...) Let me restate my position this way: FACT: Many, many species exist and have existed on Earth. The first species which appeared were very simple, single-celled organisms, without nuclei. (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins "Debate" —Dave Low
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| | | | | (...) There is more evidence around than just the fossil record though. For instance, my work involves comparing DNA sequences from different organisms. We can measure the differences between sequences, and draw a tree or nested set describing how (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Dave Schuler
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| | | | |In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ian Warfield writes: | |>Let me restate my position this way: | |>The theory of evolution states that these organisms developed of their own |>accord, by means of spontaneous, large-scale genetic mutations in a (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —James Simpson
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| | | | (...) Dave!: Here we come to the great defeater of your argument: The existence of Baseball is final and convincing proof that a Loving and Good God does in fact exist. I defy you to postulate any theoretical universe in which Baseball, in all its (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) I'm not a particular fan of baseball, but even I am amazed that the Pirates have seemed somehow to lose more games this year than everyone else in the league combined. What especially steams me is that Pittsburgh in its infinite, (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | (...) While the existence of Baseball may be an unarguable proof of God, I feel that I must point out that unfortantely, the Dodgers are an unarguable proof of the existence of the Devil (some might argue that the Yankees are actually the proof of (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Wasn't he implicated in the Applegate scandal a few years back? Dave! FUT OT.Alleged-Humor (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) No, it is proof that the universe is in fact random, if not actually cruel and malevolent. Why else would such an ultimately boring game fascinate so many? (including me) (...) And if you REALLY want proof of no justice, consider the Tigers. (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —James Simpson
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| | | | | (...) Ah, but here we have merely the inscrutability of Divine Wisdom. Presumably God foreknew that a universe with baseball, in sum totality of its joys and many despairs, would be an inherently better state of affairs than a universe without (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | Re: The Origins Debate —Ross Crawford
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| | | | (...) Baseball (...) Perhaps they just bounce too much.... ROSCO (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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