 | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | (...) I agree with that. I am bound by my own inner morals, not the letter of the law, and feel some things that are legal are wrong, and some things that are illeage are not wrong. (...) But that begs the question of how much change is needed. (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) I understand your point. But does the average beef eating man not benift from the cheap grazing in the longer term? Does the US not impose tax on the owners of the cattle? Does your country not gain from sourcing beef from inside the USA (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | (...) Yes, we are WAY better off producing food in our own country rather than contributing to foolish exploitation and environmentally unsound agricultural practices in other nations. Though we may benefit econimically, we are helping to destroy (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) We don't know. The true cost of subsidized beef is unknown. The true cost of eating more meat and less vegetables (health costs, economic benefits of people living longer) is unknown. The true cost of overgrazing is unknown. There are too many (...) (23 years ago, 2-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | I found a few cool pieces of information that seemed relevant to grazing, beef cattle, etc. These facts also point out the environmental benefits of being vegetarian: - About 85% of topsoil erosion is directly attributable to raising animals for (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) <snip> Thanks for those (pretty scary) factoids! They argue that the true cost of meat is a LOT higher than we are actually paying because the producers are - using subsidised grazing - using subsidized feed - not paying for the pollution they (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) I think there are some points worth making here. (...) Well...I would say that it is due to poor agrarian practices. It is certainly true that most of the US is used to grow feed crops for chicken, pigs and cows, but that in and of itself, (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) It's only marginally helpful (although I thank you for the datapoint) because I don't feel eating meat (of animals bred to be stupid meat animals) morally wrong in and of itself, and I don't find doing things that are self destructive (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | | | | (...) I agree that eating meat is a natural thing and not morally wrong itself. However, I strongly feel that it is morally WRONG to eat the flesh of any animal that was raised in filth and suffering and killed inhumanely. Animals deserve a healthy (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) I agree. My "stupid" comment was meant more to distinguish between cows and, say, dolphins, which I don't want to eat *because* they're too smart. (potentially... sentient!) Cows, Turkeys, Chickens, even Pigs I am fine with. (although I'm a (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | | | | (...) Yes, stay away from pig meat. The Jews and Moslems had the right idea centuries ago. (...) Exactly, why be cruel? (...) God, Zeus, Budda, Shiva... fill in the blank. <snipped some stuff> (...) Well, I find that odd. Why is it morally wrong (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | | | (...) Indeed. I think our country needs to shift from the old paradigm of "a steak a day" kind of attitude. We overdose on meat! One of the most startling figures is the drastic jump in heart disease cases with the Japanese (who acquired a post war (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Christopher Tracey
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| | | | | | (...) there's an interesting project being run by PETA looking at these very issues ( (URL) ). I first looked at the site last year and found it pretty interesting. Probabaly the only thing PETA has ever done that I almost like. (...) Larry, I think (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) Remember Libertopia isn't a "utopia" so isn't perfect. But ya, that's the idea. The thought is that strict liability with no dodging responsibility behind corporate shells would lead to a better assessment of costs. (...) Which parties are you (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Christopher Tracey
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| | | | | | | | (...) Most of the time, people seem to associate me with the commies, socialists, and/or anarchists(1). Probably because of my involvement in 'punk rock scene'. I don't like to categorize myself with any of them- not because I don't believe in parts (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | | | | (...) No worms, I dig what you're saying here. I think America has an aversion to the word "communism" and is stuck on the Cold War model of an oppressive "big brother", totalitarian state. Let's pretend there was never a Stalin or Mao and address (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) I'll tell you something that would make it easier for me to move to a vegan diet. I'm in California right now, and spent the day in San Francisco. We ate a most incredible dinner at a Vegan restaurant called Millenniun. It was indescribably (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | | (...) Wow, sounds good but definitely not cheap. (...) I bet the other Christopher meant fast food places and pizza joints. When I lived in Michigan, there were hardly any good places to get decent vegetarian meals, and only one true vegan (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) The cheap grazing leads to higher profits. These profits are then taxed. (...) My question betrays our cultural differences. There are may in my country (not myself) who feel that we should remain self sufficient in food encase we come under (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) And the taxes, which do not capture the true market cost of overgrazing, are then spent on whatever programs the government feels like, rather than on alleviating the problem. Surely you're not seriously arguing that this is efficient, or (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rolling Blackouts —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) Perhaps other problems are bigger? Son of Star Wars perhaps? (...) I do not know enough about the situation to say that. (...) Britain (...) I do not think anyone promotes what happened in the USSR as true "communism". To see how little the (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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