Subject:
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Re: Rolling Blackouts
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 3 Jun 2001 20:38:36 GMT
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Viewed:
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1169 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
>
> > > You didn't ask me, but just in case extra opinions are helpful data points.
> > > Once I realized that for lots of reasons (some of which you disagree with)
> > > eating meat was immoral, it was easy. I don't knowingly commit immoral
> > > acts, and when I backslide I try to make ammends. And since I'm not big on
> > > self delucsion, what other course of action was open to me?
>
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
>
> > It's only marginally helpful (although I thank you for the datapoint)
> > because I don't feel eating meat (of animals bred to be stupid meat animals)
> > morally wrong in and of itself,
>
> I agree that eating meat is a natural thing and not morally wrong itself.
> However, I strongly feel that it is morally WRONG to eat the flesh of any
> animal that was raised in filth and suffering and killed inhumanely. Animals
> deserve a healthy life and a humane death, regardless of whether they are
> "stupid" or smart.
I agree. My "stupid" comment was meant more to distinguish between cows and,
say, dolphins, which I don't want to eat *because* they're too smart.
(potentially... sentient!) Cows, Turkeys, Chickens, even Pigs I am fine
with. (although I'm a bit shaky on pigs thanks to the last thread about meat)
I agree that any animal that has pain receptors ought to be spared as much
pain as is practical, and that pain includes dirty environments, cruel
treatment, and needless pain in the death process, whether that animal is a
prey animal or not.
> Although I am an Atheist, I would support any notion that
> all God's creatures deserve respect and fairness.
Agreed except I don't care whose creatures they are.
> > and I don't find doing things that are self
> > destructive necessarily morally wrong just because they are stupid (I go to
> > casinos even though I know I am going to lose)
>
> I think you were too general here
No, I said "necessarily" and "*JUST* because"... that was a deliberate
restrictive clause. I'm satisified with the level of specificity I used.
> because I'm sure if you backtracked you
> could think of a bunch of self indulgent things that are morally wrong
> because they affect bystanders -- drug abuse, alcoholism (esp. combined with
> driving), rape, incest, murder can all be self indulgent and morally wrong
> and stupid.
But these all have bystander effects and therefore are morally wrong for
good and sufficient reasons whether or not they're stupid. Therefore
irrelevant to this discussion.
> Just being lazy and doing nothing is wrong (sloth).
Disagree. Being lazy is the height of virtue, if it's a constructive
laziness. Edison was supremely lazy and the world is a vastly better place
for it.
And there is nothing wrong with a good kickback with a nice book (even if
it's mind candy) and a beer. Or an afternoon spent building and posting to
LUGNET rather than working. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
> I think it
> is morally wrong to eat more than your share (gluttony).
Disagree. What is my "share"? My share is what I can afford to buy, and if I
want to be foolish and overeat, that's stupidity on my part but not a moral
failing in and of itself. Else you're setting yourself up to judge all self
destructive behaviours as wrong *because they're self destructive*. Or are
you saying that it's morally wrong to be stupid? There is a trap in that
line of reasoning which I've stumbled over myself...
> People eat what
> they want, not what they need (greed).
Disagree. I NEED only 2000 calories of rice and peanut butter and a vitamin
pill a day. But I'll eat Godiva and Haagen Daaz whenever I feel like it and
can afford to do so and not feel in the least bit guilty about it.
I reject the notion of greed altogether, basically, as an explanation or as
a thing to feel guilty about. My fair share is what I've rightly earned, and
if it is more, or less, than what someone else has, tough.
> It is morally wrong to NOT consider WHERE your food or drugs come from. Most
> meat in America comes from suffering animals raised in filth and cruelity
> and given a slow, painful, lingering death.
I'll buy "some" but I'm not sure I'm convinced it is "most".
> So, by eating it we are part of
> the greater evil. Most cocaine is made in South American jungles by men
> using little kids to stomp out the coca with their bare feet in big vats.
> The kids develop open wounds from the chemicals but also end up addicted to
> the coca because it passes into their bloodstream. So, by using cocaine we
> are part of the greater evil. Do you see what I mean?
Sounds like we need to legalise it to remove the profit from doing it in
secret in a jungle. Are those kids held prisoner, or are they doing it
because their country is screwed up and there aren't any other economic
opportunities open to them?
You're nibbling at the symptoms, when systemic change is what is needed. Do
you see what I mean?
We need a system in which the true cost is passed through to the person
making the decision, right out in the open where he or she can see it and
decide if he or she wants to pay, instead of hidden in subsidies, cost
avoidance strategies, shell corporations, secret pollution, one cycle ag,
bribery, special preferences, side trade agreements, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
That's what I concluded before anyway. But doing it for migratory animals
and ecosystems seems hard, hence my questioning of whether it is doable for
everything. But what we have now ain't working, and more of the same isn't
likely to work either.
++Lar
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Rolling Blackouts
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| (...) Yes, stay away from pig meat. The Jews and Moslems had the right idea centuries ago. (...) Exactly, why be cruel? (...) God, Zeus, Budda, Shiva... fill in the blank. <snipped some stuff> (...) Well, I find that odd. Why is it morally wrong (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Rolling Blackouts
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| (...) I agree that eating meat is a natural thing and not morally wrong itself. However, I strongly feel that it is morally WRONG to eat the flesh of any animal that was raised in filth and suffering and killed inhumanely. Animals deserve a healthy (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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