Subject:
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Re: for the eyes of Suz (Was Re: For the Eyes of Alfred Speredelozzi
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.admin.general
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Date:
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Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:16:18 GMT
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Viewed:
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294 times
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After a couple days, I'm surprised, if not sad, this hasn't been replied to.
By the admins or by people in the community who feel the same way.
Lar and I have had a decent offline discussion on this, compared notes, and
are definitely on the same page. I'm wondering why no one else is?
I wish the admins (Todd and Suz) were more responsible, and I wish others
took the time to care. Makes me think long and hard about investing
anything (financial or time) into LUGNET.
-Tim
In lugnet.admin.general, Tim Courtney writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
>
> > Calling for a member to be banned is a very serious matter. At least it
> > *ought* to be considered very serious.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > Suz has said precisely one thing... she doesn't want to hear about it. If
> > LUGNET were a government, that wouldn't fly. Citizens have the right to
> > expect governments to act on accusations of wrongdoing. Even if that act is
> > to dismiss the charges, it's still a formal closure.
> >
> > LUGNET of course is *not* a government. Nor is it a corporation with
> > shareholders and a board. We have no rights to due process and no
> > expectation of any outcome in particular. Suz rules by fiat (taking opinion
> > into account, of course) and that has in fact worked quite well, usually.
>
> After waiting a couple days to see if this post would get a reply, I'm
> writing to voice my agreement with Larry and my disagreement with how issues
> like this are handled on LUGNET.
>
> In essence, by Suz stating that she doesn't want to hear about it, she's
> damaging the community by not being there to do the proper pruning when its
> needed. This carelessness concerns me, really.
>
> I understand LUGNET is not a democracy, its not a government, and we have
> little to no say on what gets enforced here and what doesn't. I understand
> LUGNET (in a legal sense) is the sole property of Todd and Suz as well.
>
> Despite that, I'd like to bring to the table another idea. I think LUGNET
> is in a sense 'owned' by the contributors who enhabit it. Before people
> react -- I don't mean we 'own' LUGNET legally, I don't mean we 'own' it and
> have the capability to dictate what the admins do. But LUGNET has become
> much more than a set of programs and databases on a server that Todd and Suz
> created, and that Todd and Suz pay the bill for (with the help of the
> members). Its a living, breathing community - with a personality, with many
> personalities even.
>
> The admins aren't the only people who have put hours of sweat and tears into
> the community. Yep, the community is greater than LUGNET itself, but LUGNET
> is a central gathering point for the core of the community, for the most
> serious (fanatical?) of us all, and given the numbers Todd's told me about
> server stats, we have a much higher number of lurkers than posters.
>
> What I'm trying to say is - if the admins care about the people that have
> inhabited this server of theirs (and if they want them to stay), it would be
> a Good Thing if they would put a little more effort into addressing the
> serious concerns that people bring up.
>
> We owe T&S a lot of gratitude for creating LUGNET in the first place, but
> conversely, it would be nice if they showed their gratitude for us
> enhabiting it and making it what it is by taking care of issues when they
> arise. Not petty squabbles, but serious issues - like calls for banishment.
>
> When I saw the post by Suz 'Look: I don't care what your opinions are and
> I'm not going to baby-sit. So just knock it off, and/or go away. You all
> know who you are.' it made me sick. I refrained from commenting then
> because of the tension of the debate and all, but now that the tension has
> mostly subsided, I think its OK to say that now.
>
> I think that if the admins keep acting like this, the people who really do
> care will gradually drop off. The shell of LUGNET that remains - the
> discussion part of it at least, will be reminiscent of the silly web-based
> forums where juvinile immaturity rule. I've experienced those places, and
> generally the people there don't care.
>
> Its because of attitudes like this I don't see LUGNET as the center of the
> LEGO universe anymore (the fan universe, at least). I used to be a very
> LUGNET-centric thinker: 'oh, that's cool but you should put it on LUGNET'
> type thing. I don't think that way anymore.
>
> I understand a lot of changes have taken place this year with Todd and Suz,
> and if they're under a lot of stress from elsewhere I understand the
> attitudes and actions. At the same time, I think LUGNET needs somebody, be
> it either of them or someone entirely different, to address these issues
> when they arise and deal with them.
>
> I'm not trying to bash LUGNET or to bash Todd and Suz, just trying to
> express my concern. I'm one of the ones who has been here since the
> beginning, I remember the feelings of joy when I first read the LUGNET plan,
> settling into a new environment that was fresh and new and without the
> squabbles and auction spam of RTL, and thinking that LUGNET could be nothing
> but a wonderful place.
>
> My naive, idealized view has faded now. LUGNET is still a cool place, but
> its not as cool as it could be. I've watched the community climate mature
> here, and I've watched others' attitudes change as well.
>
> This used to be a great place to hang out and chat. Some of that still
> exists, but its not the same as it was. Now, I use LUGNET to keep in
> contact with a few friends, to catch the news, and to post my announcements.
> I'm not giddy about it like I used to be, and I don't think that everything
> in the LEGO universe should migrate to LUGNET anymore.
>
> I hope people don't take my post the wrong way. I've agonized over this
> thing for about an hour now, trying to figure out the right words to say. I
> don't mean to hurt feelings, I don't mean to stop others from enjoying
> LUGNET. I just want to say what's on my mind and offer my honest thoughts
> about how I've seen the administration act towards caring for the community.
>
> -Tim
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