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I was setting up a castle battle diorama last week when I thought, "Hey, in
Castle Lego, who is bad?". I mean in the newest theme, the bull guys were
clearly bad guys. But just one theme earlyer, the fright nights had no enemy
as far as i remember, but seemed to be evil. considering they were on their
own the could have been good or evil, which one were they?!?!?!?
The following weekend i dug out all of my castle catalogs and posters, and a
puzzles aroze...
In a catalog or something, showed the foresters attacking the crusaders in
huge numbers. The crusaders had a big long castle, with, belive it or not a
big black castle with lots of black falcons, or whatever next to them
helping them out. It this time period of lego castle, i thought the black
falcons were the bad guys and crusaders were good. also with them were the
robin hood, forester guys which were also good but have crusader prisners in
there sets. this leads me to belveve some one is not as good as they are
made out to be
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In lugnet.castle, Micheal Hassall writes:
> I was setting up a castle battle diorama last week when I thought, "Hey, in
> Castle Lego, who is bad?". I mean in the newest theme, the bull guys were
> clearly bad guys. But just one theme earlyer, the fright nights had no enemy
> as far as i remember, but seemed to be evil. considering they were on their
> own the could have been good or evil, which one were they?!?!?!?
There is no good or bad. They are but creations of the human mind, passing
judgement on its fellows and nature. There is only people, their desires, and
the steel by which they bash their brains in.
But the Fright Knights were evil. Not so much for what they did, but for their
horrendous design aesthetic. Following the same logic, I consider the Lion
Knights to be supreme evil (and hence are always bad-guys in my world).
_lenny
> The following weekend i dug out all of my castle catalogs and posters, and a
> puzzles aroze...
>
> In a catalog or something, showed the foresters attacking the crusaders in
> huge numbers. The crusaders had a big long castle, with, belive it or not a
> big black castle with lots of black falcons, or whatever next to them
> helping them out. It this time period of lego castle, i thought the black
> falcons were the bad guys and crusaders were good. also with them were the
> robin hood, forester guys which were also good but have crusader prisners in
> there sets. this leads me to belveve some one is not as good as they are
> made out to be
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In lugnet.castle, Micheal Hassall writes:
> I was setting up a castle battle diorama last week when I thought, "Hey, in
> Castle Lego, who is bad?". I mean in the newest theme, the bull guys were
> clearly bad guys. But just one theme earlyer, the fright nights had no enemy
> as far as i remember, but seemed to be evil. considering they were on their
> own the could have been good or evil, which one were they?!?!?!?
Hi Michael,
2 things:
1. Check this discussion on the matter from the previous time some1 ask
that question:
http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=10815
2. The way I use to look at it (no one have to agree of course):
1984-1987 Crusders (Good) vs Black Falcons (Bad)
1988-1991 Robin and the Forestpeople (Good) vs Black Knights I (Bad)
1992 Black Knights II (Good) vs Wolfpack (Bad or more Neutral)
1993-1995 Royal Knights (Good) vs Dargon Masters (Bad)
1996-1998 Forestmen (Good) vs Fright Knights (Bad)
2000-2001 Knight Kingdom (Good) vs Bulls (Bad)
Hope that helps
Love LEGO, Love Castles
Yaron "Webrain" Dori
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In lugnet.castle, Yaron Dori writes:
> 1996-1998 Forestmen (Good) vs Fright Knights (Bad)
Yes - set 6087 supports this, but also:
Fright Knights (Bad) vs Royal Knights (Good) in set 6097
and:
Fright Knights (Bad) vs some other generic knightly fellow that I can't
place (presumably Good) in set 6047/6099
Cheers
Richie
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In lugnet.castle, Richie Dulin writes:
> In lugnet.castle, Yaron Dori writes:
> > 1996-1998 Forestmen (Good) vs Fright Knights (Bad)
> Yes - set 6087 supports this, but also:
> Fright Knights (Bad) vs Royal Knights (Good) in set 6097
> and:
> Fright Knights (Bad) vs some other generic knightly fellow that I can't
> place (presumably Good) in set 6047/6099
That knight also belongs to the Royal Knights (the same one from 6090).
Love LEGO Levo Castle
Yaron "Webrain" Dori
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> > Yes - set 6087 supports this, but also:
> > Fright Knights (Bad) vs Royal Knights (Good) in set 6097
> > and:
> > Fright Knights (Bad) vs some other generic knightly fellow that I can't
> > place (presumably Good) in set 6047/6099
> That knight also belongs to the Royal Knights (the same one from 6090).
I guess that's why they call the set 6099, "Traitor Transport", because
the Royal Knight has changed allegiences and joined his enemy (the Fright
(k)Nights)in fine "benedict arnold" style. :)
Ben
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Hello!
> The way I use to look at it (no one have to agree of course)
I do not agree at all :-)
> 1984-1987 Crusders (Good) vs Black Falcons (Bad)
In these years there were no "Good" and "Bad", there were just knights from
different clans, who sometimes made war on each other, sometimes lived in
peace together. BTW the Crusaders are more aggressive (and therefore more
likely called "bad") than the Black Falcons, for they have much more battle
machines.
> 1988-1991 Robin and the Forestpeople (Good) vs Black Knights I (Bad)
> 1992 Black Knights II (Good) vs Wolfpack (Bad or more Neutral)
I wouldn't make a difference between Black Knights I and Black Knights II.
They are 'Dragon Knights' altogether. When I was a child those knights were
evil, and #6085 used to be my castle for the Sheriff of Nottingham :-)
The Wolfpack guys are probably robbers as well as the Forest Men (Robin
Hood). However, they do not have noble intents when thieving from the rich men.
> 1993-1995 Royal Knights (Good) vs Dargon Masters (Bad)
> 1996-1998 Forestmen (Good) vs Fright Knights (Bad)
> 2000-2001 Knight Kingdom (Good) vs Bulls (Bad)
Well, I think, that's exactly what was intended bei TLC.
Bye
Jojo
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Hi again
In lugnet.castle, Johannes Koehler writes:
> > 1984-1987 Crusders (Good) vs Black Falcons (Bad)
>
> In these years there were no "Good" and "Bad", there were just knights from
> different clans, who sometimes made war on each other, sometimes lived in
> peace together.
You can look at it that way too I guess
> BTW the Crusaders are more aggressive (and therefore more
> likely called "bad") than the Black Falcons, for they have much more battle
> machines.
Don't agree. I mean it's true that Crusaders had more battle machines, but
they more in everything. Black Falcons had only 6 LEGO sets while the
Crusaders had like 14. They had more in everythings, bigger castles, more
chariots etc.
However in this pictures
http://library.brickshelf.com/scans/0000/0250-1987/0250-48.html
http://library.brickshelf.com/scans/0000/0250-1987/0250-49.html
it's look like the Crusaders attacking the Black Falcons.
Well anyway the Black Falcons will stay forever bad in my point of view.
> > 1988-1991 Robin and the Forestpeople (Good) vs Black Knights I (Bad)
> > 1992 Black Knights II (Good) vs Wolfpack (Bad or more Neutral)
>
> I wouldn't make a difference between Black Knights I and Black Knights II.
> They are 'Dragon Knights' altogether. When I was a child those knights were
> evil, and #6085 used to be my castle for the Sheriff of Nottingham :-)
I agree with that point. It's not right to say Black Knights I and Black
Knights II, yet I couldn't think of a better way to see it.
For ages I also included the Dargon Masters as part of that same group.
"#6085 used to be my castle for the Sheriff of Nottingham" - I think it's
not far from the truth, I think at least in several Robin Hood films they were
Dragon as their symbol.
Well something that in concerning the above, just wanted to say
Jojo as always wonderful work you made on you new (2nd) model for the ISCC
http://www.1000steine.de/iscc/iscc2/entries/133/index.htm
(I couldn't find the formel annocment on that model so I'm writting it here)
Love LEGO Love Castle
Yaron "Webrain" Dori
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Hello!
[Crusaders vs. Black Falcons]
> Don't agree. I mean it's true that Crusaders had more battle machines, but
> they more in everything. Black Falcons had only 6 LEGO sets while the
> Crusaders had like 14. They had more in everythings, bigger castles, more
> chariots etc.
That's true. And this is why I always preferred Black Falcons rather than
Crusaders. BFs were the underdogs that I've sympathy for.
> Well anyway the Black Falcons will stay forever bad in my point of view.
Hehe, I can understand this point of view. Crusaders look noble with their
golden Lion's Crest and with their big castles. They're probably meant to
represent Richard Lionheart's loyal fellowers.
In contrast to the Crusaders the BFs look dark and almost sinister, with one
word: they look evil. But they are much cooler than those harmless Crusaders...
[Black Knights, Dragon Masters]
> For ages I also included the Dargon Masters as part of that same group.
Unfortunatelly the shield of the DMs is very similar to the oval BKs'
shield. So these two groups might be mingled by many people. However, I
think the style of armour and castles (considering the fact that BKs already
had two castles) is reason enough to seperate both factions from each other.
> "#6085 used to be my castle for the Sheriff of Nottingham" - I think it's
> not far from the truth, I think at least in several Robin Hood films they were
> Dragon as their symbol.
I'm not even sure if this was the reason for my choice. Probably the
blackness of the castle itself was dicisive.
> Well something that in concerning the above, just wanted to say
> Jojo as always wonderful work you made on you new (2nd) model for the ISCC
> http://www.1000steine.de/iscc/iscc2/entries/133/index.htm
> (I couldn't find the formel annocment on that model so I'm writting it here)
Thank you very much!
I didn't make a formal announcement because I didn't translate the German
text into English. Unfortunatelly I don't know many of the appropiate
technical terms, that I used in German.
Bye
Jojo
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> In lugnet.castle, Micheal Hassall writes:
> I was setting up a castle battle diorama last week when I thought, "Hey, in
> Castle Lego, who is bad?". I mean in the newest theme, the bull guys were
> clearly bad guys. But just one theme earlyer, the fright nights had no enemy
> as far as i remember, but seemed to be evil. considering they were on their
> own the could have been good or evil, which one were they?!?!?!?
Just another word on the subject,you can also of course see it as the TLC
repeating way. I mean take for example LEGO City, how many Airports,
Hospitals, Fire Departments, Police... they made during the last 20 years.
But of course a kid who played in 1984 with his Airport, when LEGO produced
the 1994 Airport he was no longer a kid and there were other kids to enjoy
it the same way he did (LEGO basiclly is made for kids and not collectors
after all). As for castle just count the number of Catapults or Chariots you
have.
In the same way of looking at it, LEGO Castle have three major themes that's
keep on recycling itself (I wouldn't say evolve because you'll see examples
of exactly the opposite):
Castles/Knights/Kings...(can be refered also as Good Guys?):
1984 - Crusders
1984 - Black Falcons
1988 - Black Knights
1995 - Royal Knights
2000 - Knight Kingdom
The basic of their structure is more or less the same. Prehaps it's hard to
look at the Black Knights as good because their Dark Black Castle #6085 but
basiclly it's structure is almost the same as #6080 a part from the color of
course. I guess the Yellow Castle can also fit in this catagory.
Trees and Caves/Peasants/Thieves...(can be refered also as Neutral Guys?):
1984 - Few minifigs like #6010
1988 - Robin Hood and the forestmens
1992 - Wolfpack
1996 - Forest people
I don't think I need to explain that part
Dragons/Magics...(can be refered also as Bad Guys):
1993 - Dragon Masters
1997 - Fright Knights
2000 - Bull Knights
OK, to start comparing between Dragon Masters & Fright Knights it's pretty
easy. Everyone can see the connection between them. Using Dragons & Bats,
Witches and Wizards, unique wired looking structures, basiclly the same.
I'll have to add the Bull Knights into that catagory because there is a sure
connection with the previous, but they never had even a single structure
(something I always wondered), only war machines...
Love LEGO, Love Castles
Yaron "Webrain" Dori
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In lugnet.castle, Yaron Dori writes:
> > In lugnet.castle, Micheal Hassall writes:
> > I was setting up a castle battle diorama last week when I thought, "Hey, in
> > Castle Lego, who is bad?". I mean in the newest theme, the bull guys were
> > clearly bad guys. But just one theme earlyer, the fright nights had no enemy
> > as far as i remember, but seemed to be evil. considering they were on their
> > own the could have been good or evil, which one were they?!?!?!?
>
> Just another word on the subject,you can also of course see it as the TLC
> repeating way. I mean take for example LEGO City, how many Airports,
> Hospitals, Fire Departments, Police... they made during the last 20 years.
> But of course a kid who played in 1984 with his Airport, when LEGO produced
> the 1994 Airport he was no longer a kid and there were other kids to enjoy
> it the same way he did (LEGO basiclly is made for kids and not collectors
> after all). As for castle just count the number of Catapults or Chariots you
> have.
>
> In the same way of looking at it, LEGO Castle have three major themes that's
> keep on recycling itself (I wouldn't say evolve because you'll see examples
> of exactly the opposite):
>
> Castles/Knights/Kings...(can be refered also as Good Guys?):
> 1984 - Crusders
> 1984 - Black Falcons
> 1988 - Black Knights
> 1995 - Royal Knights
> 2000 - Knight Kingdom
>
> The basic of their structure is more or less the same. Prehaps it's hard to
> look at the Black Knights as good because their Dark Black Castle #6085 but
> basiclly it's structure is almost the same as #6080 a part from the color of
> course. I guess the Yellow Castle can also fit in this catagory.
>
> Trees and Caves/Peasants/Thieves...(can be refered also as Neutral Guys?):
> 1984 - Few minifigs like #6010
> 1988 - Robin Hood and the forestmens
> 1992 - Wolfpack
> 1996 - Forest people
>
> I don't think I need to explain that part
>
> Dragons/Magics...(can be refered also as Bad Guys):
> 1993 - Dragon Masters
> 1997 - Fright Knights
> 2000 - Bull Knights
>
> OK, to start comparing between Dragon Masters & Fright Knights it's pretty
> easy. Everyone can see the connection between them. Using Dragons & Bats,
> Witches and Wizards, unique wired looking structures, basiclly the same.
> I'll have to add the Bull Knights into that catagory because there is a sure
> connection with the previous, but they never had even a single structure
> (something I always wondered), only war machines...
>
> Love LEGO, Love Castles
> Yaron "Webrain" Dori
I've always thougth of the Lego castle series evolving in time: starting
just after 1066 with the military Norman fortresses of England, continuing
with the more inhabitable medieval knights castles (around 1300), and ending
so far with the splendid royal show-piece castles of the late medieval
(around 1500), where the introduction of black powder (Bull's cannons) made
the older fortifications obsolete.
With the castles being from different periods, the "good vs. bad" differs as
well; the kings Norman fortresses eventually grew into being the Earls
strongpoints in the rebellions against the king. So good in one time could
be bad in a later time.
Arne, Copenhagen
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I don't think it's too black and white like that.
I think Crusaders were the biggest and wealthiest force in the land.
Black Falcons I view as being a noble house that had their own goals and
plans which sometimes clashed with the plans of the Crusaders while other
times they could work together towards common goals.
Forestmen I view as being poor. They are like Robin Hood. They steal from
the Crusaders to redistribute the wealth among their people. You could say
that stealing is bad, but on the other hand, maybe the Crusaders were greedy
and left them with little choice. I see them as being good, but not lawful.
Black Monarch (Black Knights I) I view as being like Black Falcons. A
smaller noble house in the kingdom dominated by the Crusaders. The set
Knights Stronghold has Black Falcons attacking a Black Monarch fortress, so
there was obviously some conflict there. They probably battled with each
other hoping to become #2 in the land.
Dragon Masters seemed like they were being portrayed as evil, but they were
also part of a shift for LEGO. They were getting into fantasy with dragons
and wizards in many of the sets. I would view them as another noble house -
one that is more secretive and strange.
Wolfpack seems more like a group of bandits, and I would view them as
mercenary if not outright evil. Their motivations for robbing people are
wealth, and the ideals of "stealing from the rich and giving to the poor" do
not seem to be present like with the forestmen.
Dark Forest was just a bad atempt to bring the Forestmen (which are my
favorite) back. Unfortunately, it appears as though it failed. None of the
Dark Forest sets appeal to me. They also appear to be more evil. I don't
know if this is portrayed with facial details or that they must be bad/evil
because they come in sucky sets.
Actually, everything in Castle since then has sucked, IMO, except for the
new Blacksmith Shop. Fright Knights were the worst, and Knight's Kingdom was
pretty bad too. The 1995 Royal Knights stuff was alright, but I just
consider it to be Crusaders with lame shield designs.
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In lugnet.castle, Micheal Hassall writes:
> I was setting up a castle battle diorama
> last week when I thought, "Hey, in Castle
> Lego, who is bad?". I mean in the newest
> theme, the bull guys were clearly bad guys.
> But just one theme earlyer, the fright
> nights had no enemy as far as i remember,
> but seemed to be evil. considering they
> were on their own the could have been
> good or evil, which one were they?!?!?!?
Well, you can go by lego's version, or
mine. (others have speculated on lego
group's alliances, but I'm going to
theorize here.)
The Black Falcons were a mercenary force
employed by the crusader factions to deal
in terrorist acts, assassinations and the
like, under order of the supreme crusader
master, the Crimson Lion.
Of course, the Falcons has a Repertoire
of their own, stretching back centuries
before, where they had the occasional
skirmish or two with original Classique
forces of the earlier centuries. (those
forces were poorly equipped, and died
off soon later.) The surviving members
soon fused with the Black Falcons, but
with all alliances, the fusion went sour.
With this, there was a war at the heart
of the order, which tore the entire apart
into two sides, one of the forces heading
into the forests to build their empire,
while the others pursued their business on
the mainland.
Soon enough, both split factions soon
created their own respective crests of
heraldry, and once again, as with time,
factions continues to split and alliances
shifted until it was the new order of
Crusaders against the Black knights.
Of course, the Black falcons still
survived throughout the years, and both
sides of the regime frequently enlisted
them. (along with rogue forestmen) to
fight their battles for them, but with
time again, battle technology had proven
far too powerful against the black
falcon's equipment, and eventually faded
into obscurity.
A few years later, radical changes began
to beset the castle world, as the
crusaders reign fades, after being
finally defeated by the Black Knights
and their forestmen employed forces.
The counquered crusaders soon began to
rebel though, adopting the wolf as
their crest.
With their insurgency erupting across
occupied Black Knight's terrotory, a
group of elite knights were employed
by the Black Ministrel of the knights
to combat the problem, but were equally
matched with the cunning of the enemy.
After a few months of rebellion and war,
the Black Knights fell out of power
after their leader was overthrown by
his elite knights after they realized
the senselessness of war.
And seeing a window of opportunity
blow a newfound breeze of peace about
the country after the uprising was
quelled, the Elite knights of the
Dragon order soon established
themselves as the royal knights.
THeir knigdom spread across the
coutnry, but was constantly plagued
with the ubiquitous dark forestmen,
who, contrary to popular belief,
actualyl stole for themselves. The
were a constant problem about the
region, but compared to them, a
worse face of evil appeared to the
kingdom; pagans.
So, the royal knights established a
campaign to diminishthe threat, but
were soon appalled at the conversion
rate amongst their religious sect.
Men and women of once high statue were
soon paying heed to the enemy
propaganda, and taking allegiance
against their order.
You can guess what happens next...the
royal knights eventually disspiated the
pagan threat, send the leader into exile
and restructured their order.
But, even after the restructuring effort,
their leader was soon killed by a mysterious
'foreigner from the east', which leads
castle to its choatic state now.
Just my theory...
*takes a bow*
<<_Matt Hein_>>
Fellow lego enthusiast
O s p r e y
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Great story, Matt. Very intriguing. You should make a storyline of that,
with pics and all...Now that would be Castle...Booya!
~Dan
http://ozbricks.net/lsa/
http://brickshelf.com/gallery/the-lsa/
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In lugnet.castle, Daniel Mattia writes:
> Great story, Matt. Very intriguing. You
> should make a storyline of that, with pics
> and all...Now that would be Castle...Booya!
> ~Dan
> http://ozbricks.net/lsa/
> http://brickshelf.com/gallery/the-lsa/
Yep, and just to think I was just messing
around when I wrote the castle chronology.
(Actually, I considered earlier doing a
story based on the history of lego castle
factions, but for now, I'm concentrating
on completing the first volume of my story,
Anachronistic Skies.) it's a long story,
but you can read small portions here...
http://www.lugnet.com/~1112/Fantasy
But if I had the time and the resources,
I wouldn't hesitate at all to start a
project like that.
Anyway, thanks for the comments.
<<_Matt Hein_>>
Fellow lego enthusiast
O s p r e y
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