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(...) But not one single eensy-weensy bit of NQC ends up in the robot - it's just a tool. This is the HUGE misunderstanding that people seem to have. NQC *isn't* somehow loaded into the robot. Are you telling me that I can't use any TOOLS that (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) That doesn't matter. What matters is what people _perceive_... which is why non lego tools shouldn't be allowed. People who have more of a computer background would _tend_ to develop better robots, and would also tend towards using tools like (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) .... (...) I agree... unfortunately, there's not a heck of a lot anyone can do about it. The easiest solution is to simply not compete with so dramatically less competent people who don't understand that while you may use different tools, the (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) OK - so there are two horrible implications in what you say: 1) People who have more of a mechanical background are allowed to have a huge advantage - but people who have more of a software background have to be constrained to prevent them (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) But it won't necessarily get perceived that way... it would be perceived that NQC is a tool for advanced users, and that it may offer advantages that the regular LEGO tools don't. Available for zero financial cost doesn't necessarily mean (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) You can't possibly defend that position. ANYONE can have NQC for zero cost! It's an OpenSource project. Just download it from the NQC web site or use the brickcc tool from any web browser! You can even find links to it from the official Lego (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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Hell, let's just switch over to a meritocracy. We can imprison the inept and get it all over with. Who gets to decide whom has merit? In no way does LEGO or FIRST try to level the playing field by constraining anyone's abilities. They constrain the (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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On Thu, March 10, 2005 1:46 am, Steve Baker said: (...) People with a mechanical background have a huge advantage over who? People without a mechanical background? Yes, I agree they can build better robots. So, just how is your son constrained? What (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) Because any language that targets the standard LEGO firmware on an RCX brick can not result in any competitive advantage while the other examples you cite clearly would lead to an unlevel playing field. LEGO already provides a language choice (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) Probably nothing. There certainly are things you can do in MindScript that you couldn't do in NQC until recently. You couldn't use pointers, for example. But I don't think that is what Steve Baker is arguing. He's arguing that his son's (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) So - let's write a two paragraph eMail to all FLL participants that says "By the way, NQC is a tool for writing RCX software - it's utterly free and available by clicking this link on the Lego web site to get to the NQC homepage. Some people (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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snipping somewhat freely... (...) Given these two statements, why are argue so much about whether or not teams can use NQC? Being able to use NQC won't make any difference to the resultant program, being able to use NQC won't make any difference to (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) Of course you won't be successful if you're inept (not saying you are inept) at any aspect of robot building, be it mechanical design, programming, or (especially) mission planning. But I still say that a fairly simple robot with some good (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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(...) Explain to me how good programming compensates for a robot that can't travel straight or that has no mechanical means for completing the mission objectives? If by good programming you mean that the program checks sensors to adjust the (...) (20 years ago, 10-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) And in the process, could possibly _decrease_ the number of kids participating, who may feel that it's out of their league. Can you really say with certainty that wouldn't happen? Even if you think you can, I'll bet that LEGO and FLL aren't (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) The issue is not "competitive advantage." The issue is whether or not it is a product of LEGO. You can use any computer you want (Dell, IBM, Gateway, etc.) because LEGO doesn't build computers. But they do offer programming environments that (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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On Fri, March 11, 2005 10:29 am, Steve Baker said: (...) Do you mean kids that are good at software, or good with NQC? And exactly what is "the best available tool"? I assume you're claiming that NQC is the best tool for FLL. While it may be true (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) Boy I am tired of hearing "Robolab has no real world value" Robolab is based on National Instruments Labview product... (URL) which is used globaly by many scientists and engineers for "real world" solutions...like robotics control, test and (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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All, I've been folllowing this thread with a lot of interest, and as the author of pbForth - yet another Mindstorms programming language I'd like to weigh in on this subject. You have to remember that FLL is all about engineering and tinkering. I (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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On Fri, March 11, 2005 11:03 am, Steve Baker said: (...) So, your son (sorry, I'm really not trying to attack your son) can create a sequence of steps using NQC. As we know, these steps are converted to op-codes. Robolab uses icons to represent the (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) No programming can compensate for a robot that hasn't mechanical means for completing the mission objectives. But it doesn't take a very sophisticated robot to complete the objectives in the competitions. Many of the teams I saw at this years (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) Well, you can build a two-wheeled robot in two ways. The naive, simplistic way is to put a motor and rotation sensor on each wheel and drive both motors forward and use software to figure out when the robot isn't getting the same amount of (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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In lugnet.robotics, Ralph Hempel wrote: <snip> (...) This has been my experience. Being in a room full of kids who are all jazzed up on technology, math and science is wonderous. Listening to a kid describe how she discovered subroutines is (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) 1) As several people have pointed out, Lego *do* (somewhat indirectly) 'sell' NQC by providing it on CD-ROM in one of their books and as a CD sold via Pittsco-Dacta. 2) We can use Dell computers because Lego don't make computers. Why can't we (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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Steve, I forgot to add you to the list of those who should "Get off your butt and change it if it really bothers you". Your arguments are well thought out and reasonable. But what are you trying to accomplish? If you want a rule change, work to (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) The guys at NASA *are* undoubtedly very smart at working around problems - but that's a REALLY poor example (and I know everyone uses it). If you look at what they actually came up with, it boils down to using some available plastic and (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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I'm really tired of arguing this. Nobody's minds are being changed. I still think it's a trivial rule change for FLL to fix this and it's long past time that they opened their minds to NQC and other similar systems based on Java or Forth. Other (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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On Fri, March 11, 2005 12:48 pm, Steve Baker said: (...) And, those are the only options? Ok, but it's just not a trivial change. There are a few other topics we never even touched on, like who can you call to get support for NQC? Teams would assume (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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(...) You see, interestingly enough... this is a sort of catch-22 for the people that want NQC allowed. If there is a huge advantage to NQC, people who don't use it might perceive other people using it as somehow unfair to them (even though it _is_ (...) (20 years ago, 11-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | Re: FLL not allowing NQC; Mindscript is allowed
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Hi friends, this really has been a most interesting thread about a theme that periodically reappears. I think there are a few things to underline. First of all, there is the idea of a contest that only makes sense, if restricting rules are set up to (...) (20 years ago, 12-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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