 | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems —Thomas Johnson
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| | | (...) I take issue w/this statement on a number of levels. 1st, is the assumption that RIS/Robolab somehow leads to bad programing habits. Back this statement up! While you can certainly show me some shoddy Robolab code, I can counter w/equally poor (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems —Steve Baker
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| | | | (...) Both use the tired old paradigm of branching around blocks of code more or less at will. This is the way BASIC and FORTRAN have always approached programming and it's well known and documented that those languages have to be 'unlearned' (at (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems —Thomas Johnson
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| | | | | Steve, I stand by my statements. Robolab does not encourage poor programing practice. Neither does NQC encourage it. These tools are neutral and can be used well or not. Further, Robolab skills become LabVIEW skills--skills that are often required (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | RE: RIS 2.0 Problems —Larry Whitman
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| | | | | | | Let me weigh in. Robolab, I think, is an EXCELLENT tool to bridge the gap between GUI based programming and "kid" programming. Also, it should be noted that ALL programming is not done in a C/C++ environment. Many engineers spend time developing (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems —Bernard Catt
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| | | | | | | (...) Sitting back watching, I have to delurk and make the point that in ROBOLAB 2.5.4 there is a new function called "Upload RCX Code". With this function you can download someones "spagetti" code to an RCX and then upload it back to your computer (...) (20 years ago, 8-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems —John Hansen
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| | | | | | (...) Tom, I'd like to hear your comments in response to my "robolab as a tool for teaching programming post" earlier today. The gist of it starts about here: (URL) short, I disagree with you regarding whether Robolab is neutral with respect to good (...) (20 years ago, 16-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems —Brass Tilde
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| | | | | (...) the same. (...) I'm going to disagree with this one statement, and this one statement only. I've been working in the business world creating software for almost 20 years, and I use flowcharts, and their conceptual children, all the time. While (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Danger, that way lies religious war. I would submit that if you're using a real OO language, ORDs, OADs and OMs are more useful than flowcharts. That said, what I have seen of the language that ships with the RCX is not conductive to (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | Re: RIS & FLL —Steve Hassenplug
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| | | | | Does anyone know what "Mindscript" is? I assume most people in this discussion don't know what it is, or that it IS allowed in FLL events. From the 2003 rules (unchanged in '04): (URL) ALLOWABLE SOFTWARE The Robot must be programmed using LEGO (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | Re: RIS & FLL —Brass Tilde
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| | | | | | (...) I've heard of it, but that's all. (...) that (...) pratice. Especially when it's generally pretty easy to map a flowchart into code. Especially for the kinds of programs used by RIS applications. Even a highly event-driven system has (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | | Re: RIS & FLL —Steve Hassenplug
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| | | | | | On Mon, March 7, 2005 1:05 pm, Brass Tilde said: (...) Here's where you can get it: (URL) I said, it's legal for FLL, but it does lack one command that both RoboLab and NQC offer. Goto Steve (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | | Re: RIS & FLL —Chris Magno
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| | | | | | | Steve, I only code using Mindscript. Some day I might even learn to use NQC. but I have too much BASIC i need to unlearn to grok C How do you think I did Project X. (URL) nested if's) Re: no goto the SDK is the closest thing i have found to "basic" (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | | Re: RIS & FLL —Brass Tilde
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| | | | | | (...) RoboLab and (...) No great loss. The only reason I still use GOTO in anything is because that's the way Visual Basic's brain dead error system works. :-) 'Course, there's nothing *really* wrong with a GOTO instruction used correctly. It's just (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems —T. Alexander Popiel
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| | | | (...) Welcome to the religious war of the 1970s. Honestly, no ALGOL-derived language (Pascal, C, etc) with or without Smalltalk-inspired OO extensions (C++, Java, C#) can be called a modern language. True, some of them have been built recently, but (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems - Language war in 32k RAM —Michael Obenland
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| | | | This thread made my day. Really! In the end, the brick is an embedded system with a whopping 32k of RAM, mostly filled up by the operating system. For me (ok, I admit, I want to drive the war a bit further...) even c++ has too much overhead to be (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems - Low Level Languages? —Mark Bellis
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| | | | | (...) Reminds me of BBC micros, where the most useful BASIC command was the open square bracket to go into assembler! Do you have facilities to program the RCX in assembler or hex? I'm interested in a lower level language so that I don't have to (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems - Low Level Languages? —Michael Obenland
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| | | | | | | (...) Sure, that can be done. Take a look at brickOS. With brickOS as operating system you can write your programs with gcc. So you can write c, or mix c with assembler via asm{} or you could write plain asm routines. (...) But you have to learn H8 (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems - Low Level Languages? —Steve Baker
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| | | | | | (...) You could certainly use assembler (and presumably hex) using brickOS but I don't think it's possible with the standard firmware. Of course a true 'Real Programmer' would just dump the firmware altogether and write to the bare metal. (...) (...) (20 years ago, 8-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems - Low Level Languages? —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) Or if you really wanna reduce the memory use, compile your program as firmware that you can send using firmdl3 (like the BrickOS kernel itself, or LDCC). Although I must admit that BrickOS, if you use the kernel compile defines, can be made (...) (20 years ago, 8-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | RE: RIS 2.0 Problems - Language war in 32k RAM —Brass Tilde
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| | | | | (...) Hah! That's for high level wussies! *Real* programmers use a soldering gun... (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems - Language war in 32k RAM —Mark Tarrabain
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| | | | | | (...) No no no... Real programmers don't use guns because we don't believe violence actually solves anything. (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems - Language war in 32k RAM —Steve Baker
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| | | | | (...) That's true - but NQC is eminently usable. (...) For those who don't catch that reference: (URL) (real programmers even don't use assemblers but code directly in hex) (I actually have keyed a short program into a PDP-11 using the front panel (...) (20 years ago, 8-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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| | | | | | Re: RIS 2.0 Problems - Language war in 32k RAM —John Hansen
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| | | | (...) Ahem! :-) If it weren't for Pascal there wouldn't be a Bricx Command Center. Which means there wouldn't be all that really cool brickOS support in BricxCC either. And there wouldn't be the option to write brickOS programs using the GNU Pascal (...) (20 years ago, 9-Mar-05, to lugnet.robotics)
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