Debate : 8408


Off-Topic / Debate / 8408

Is space property? —Christopher L. Weeks

Howdy and Merry Christmas all, As you probably know, I'm one of the property-rights be-all libertarians here. But I've been fixating on the role of land (or locations) as property. I have talked about the generation of property (e.g. jars of clay) (...) (24 years ago, 25-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Kevin Wilson

Christopher Weeks wrote in message ... (...) special (...) If you're going to include land and air, then water, too. Don't we then get into the old, old problem of how best to manage common resources? Kevin (24 years ago, 25-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Oh sure, I was considering water as between air and food in this regard. And as far as management, that is beyond the scope of what I was thinking about. But even still, there is something intrinsically different abut land and air v. food, (...) (24 years ago, 25-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Erik Olson

Chris, you're hypothesizing in the absence of definitions. (24 years ago, 26-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Hi Erik, I'm not sure I follow. I just went back and reread my note, looking for unclarity or definitionless terms. The only thing that I really came up with is the concept of rights. Rights are definately up in the air as far as a definition. (...) (24 years ago, 26-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Erik Olson

(...) Well, yeah, that's the central concept, isn't it? If you're trying to apply and extend a concept but you don't really know what it is to start with, muddle will result. (The irony is that you're trying to go into space when it is grounding (...) (24 years ago, 26-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) and (...) will (...) I've been thinking about this. I have at various times thought that rights are: A) immutable truths based on the nature of our humanity, B) make believe, C) legal constructs saying what we can do, and D) fuzzy terms that (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Paul Baulch

Christopher Weeks wrote in message ... (...) believe, (...) seem (...) As an atheist, here is my take on human rights: Rights are, as far as I can tell, a human social construct, a "base-level" set of behavioural rules that originate from (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Frank Filz

(...) I do find it unsettling that the majority of humanity doesn't live under the same conditions I do, but I don't see a clean way to get from where we are now, to a utopia where everyone has a "fair" allotment of "stuff" (life necessities, goods, (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Paul Baulch

Frank Filz wrote in message <3A513F9C.2142BF82@m...ng.com>... (...) I would agree that life probably can't become even mostly fair for humanity as a whole. However, that would be a very poor excuse not to strive to push things in the _direction_ of (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) And I think that the removal of forced wealth reallocation, particularly when the wealth was not gained corruptly is unfair. Fixing that problem would "push things in the _direction_ of fairness." (...) There are two issues. One is that the US (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Dave Schuler

(...) Just a minor nitpick; if the money to fund such killings is taken from you against your will and beyond your reasonable power to resist, you are not morally responsible for what is done with that money. If a person breaks into your house and (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Hi Dave, I get your point, but... The payment of taxes is (normally considered) a proper and right thing. So it feels different (even to me) than being burgled. (How often do you write a check to your burgler?) And, I do know that the (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Dave Schuler

(...) 8^) I make it a habit only to be burgled by people who accept Visa. I might be unknowingly straddling two issues here; I'm comparing taxation with burglary in terms of the "taxation is theft" principle I've read, but perhaps that's not (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Uhh, back to tax again ;-) (Was Re: Is space property?) —Paul Baulch

Christopher Weeks wrote in message ... (...) unfair, (...) You're right. I have made two mistakes in my argument: one was to invoke the ambiguous concept of "fairness", the other one was to rigidly stick to the dictionary definition of "stealing" (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Uhh, back to tax again ;-) (Was Re: Is space property?) —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I agree that I am sort-of legally _not_ entitled to those portions of my personal property. There are some problems in the US with whether the income tax is actually legal, but I suppose that's an issue for an other time. My claims that (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Uhh, back to tax again ;-) (Was Re: Is space property?) —Paul Baulch

Christopher Weeks wrote in message ... (...) problem (...) I (...) The _concept_ of ownership is an ancient one, certainly, but as far as I know the laws of government are the only thing that _assign_ the right of ownership. (...) voluntarily (...) (...) (23 years ago, 5-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Lindsay Frederick Braun

Warning: Long, long rant by the resident imperial historian follows. Grab a donut (or an ear of corn, if you're a Middle American like myself). ;) (...) It doesn't. The lifestyle we enjoy in the US, UK, Europe (as a whole), Japan, Oceania, Canada, (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Bwaaaahahhahahahaha! I can't believe I did that! *Last* century. Last. d'oh, LFB (Now if only I could stop writing "19" on my cheques...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Christopher L. Weeks

<picking kernel bits out of my teeth>Golly!</picking> (...) I don't see how this paragraph supports the idea that "fair" isn't an even distribution. I mean, I basically agree with what you're saying, but I don't see the connection to defining what (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —David Goeb

(...) [snip] (...) Short answer NO. Long answer: However Space-Time can be a form of limited property, and *must* be so!!! This is due to the reality of SPACE. When people think of space they are woofully ignorant as to what they are refering to. A (...) (24 years ago, 26-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) But, why not? (...) I don't buy the must part. I think what you mean is "ought to," right? (...) It simply depends on your inertial frame of reference. Why stop there? That same space is also spinning about the galactic core and rocketing away (...) (24 years ago, 26-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —David Goeb

(...) In my mind the ownership of objects, concepts, or land is not as clear cut as most people think it is. It is realy subject to their expectation that things will be where they see them now. (Hillside Home slides into sea etc) I myself have a (...) (24 years ago, 26-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is space property? —Frank Filz

Hmm, I've been thinking about this issue since before Chris posted (look back and you'll find a thought exercise of mine dealing with someone living on property which is totally surrounded by someone else's property where that other person decides (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)