Subject:
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Re: 'changing countries to be free' (was Re: Who the devil)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 6 May 2005 06:13:22 GMT
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Viewed:
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953 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Parsons wrote:
<snip>
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Besides, I think its been discussed even here at length that trying to
‘change a country to be free’ from the outside is fraught, and historically
has a low rate of enduring success.
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Really? Try selling that argument to a German or Japanese person-- I don’t buy
it.
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That said, even if I was looking to make
countries free, folks need to seize their freedom.
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You mean like turning out by the millions against, in some cases, fear of death,
to vote?
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By far most of the
enduring democracies did. If one looks at the factors that gave rise to a
people siezing their freedom, it is often around things that depend on wealth
and living standards - these are indeed part of what I am driving at. These
are the things that enable people to look up, and strive.
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Iraq has plenty wealth to live for in its ground.
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These are also the
things that make governments more long term in their thinking and more
accountable for their activities, even if the countries are not free in the
American sense.
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Don’t parse that. For one thing, there is no accountability for a despot.
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Regardless, its not democracy that makes countries sensible in their use of
nuclear weapons (if we can assume for the moment, against the evidence, that
we can treat the US, UK, France, USSR and China say, as sensible users of
nuclear weapons),
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Say again? Only one country you listed ever “used” a nuclear weapon. What
“evidence” are you talking about? And how does one use a nuclear weapon
sensibly, if not as a deterrent?
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its their wealth and power, their opportunity to achieve at
least reasonable outcomes in line with their aspirations by non-nuclear
means.
Leaving countries poor, isolated, powerless, at the mercy of other countries
national interest, and with a real risk of invasion hanging over their heads
is what leads to actions that the wealthy think of as irresponsible.
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You’ve completely lost me. So, are you arguing that wealthy countries should
come to the aid of the less fortunate, or not?
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This is what we ought to be addressing, and my humble list is only a short
incomplete summary of what can be done, if only we want to.
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Your humble list? Honestly, I didn’t even follow what you were actually
proposing.
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But I do appreciate that its much more heroic and makes for much better
coverage on Fox news to be sallying forth with force of arms and economic
sanctions to rescue the poor oppressed many from the brutal wealthy few, and
deliver them Freedom.
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Nobody is going to deny that the US deposed SH out of self-interest. It just
happened to be in the best interests of the whole world that such a nutjob with
such vast resources at his disposal was taken out as well. A no-brainer.
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Never mind that western living standards are built on the broken backs of
these same poor oppressed many,
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Yawn. Spare me the demagoguery.
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or that there are plenty of poor oppressed
many held down by a wealthy few even in our own home countries,
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Cites?
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or even that
there is little or no reason to suspect that these heroic efforts will do any
good at all (beyond supporting the aforesaid western living standards).
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Germany? Japan? Okay, I’ll concede France. Your pessimism WRT Iraq is
disgusting, if not totally ignorant.
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And while we’re watching the glorious coverage of the heroic efforts, we can
skip the stories about how we are gobbling up the very resources that our
children and the poor oppressed many we’re going to save will need tomorrow
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Which stories, which resources? How do you even know what resources we will
need in the future?
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(if we ever succeed in saving them).
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Please, I’m begging you.
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Its very neat, and hangs to gether wonderfully if you don’t think too hard.
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I think that you’re thinking too hard!
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In the meantime, I understand that its Driving season in the US (something we
just don’t seem to have here),
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Sorry to hear that. I’m actually looking forward to getting some rounds in this
summer...
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so there’ll be plenty of cheap gasoline,
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Supply and demand. It will only be cheap if people decide not to use it.
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amusement park rides and supersized meals to be consumed to while away the
hours.
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That kind of sarcasm might be considered clever where you’re from, but not so
much here.
JOHN
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