Subject:
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Re: left-leaning pantywaists in Britain (Re: So are they prisoners of war or what?)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 5 Feb 2002 03:29:44 GMT
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Viewed:
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423 times
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Scott A wrote:
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> >
> > > > It's my understanding that Walker
> > >
> > > is alleged to have
> >
> > Oops. Fair enough.
> >
> > > > committed by the other detainees. Since Walker is a citizen, for
> > > > instance, he is able to commit treason against the US, but the average
> > > > Al-Qaida member is not similarly able. Therefore, Walker can be arrested
> > > > for treason and therefore tried in the US, while non-US citizens cannot be
> > > > so arrested. Further, as a US citizein, Walker's crime is also an offense
> > > > separate from that of the other detainees; the detainees engaged in war
> > > > against the US, while Walker engaged in treason.
> > >
> > > Indeed. But there are UK "detainees" in Cuba too. Could these guys not have
> > > committed treason against the UK? Could they not go on trial in the UK with
> > > real charges against them?
> >
> > Maybe--has the UK made any effort to extradite those detainees (who have,
> > I understand, reported that conditions in the detainment center are
> > perfectly adequate)?
>
> It was claimed that they were "happy" - which I thought odd.
The UK detainees are still different from Walker. The current action in
Afghanistan is a direct reaction to an attack on US soil. This Walker is
alleged to have treasoned against the US, the UK detainees are just non
Afghans, just like the various other non-Afghans involved.
I'm not sure I'm remembering right, but aren't all the Guantanamo
detainees non-Afghans.
In my mind though, I'm not really sure I support calling Walker a
traitor. A country is not truly free if you can not chose to leave. Now
we may argue whether Walker truly indicated his desire to renounce the
US, and I do see a difference between a non-citizen attacking the US and
a citizen, but not much. Mostly, what I want to see is the actual
actions of the various detainees evaluated, and appropriate recourse
taken. Out of pride and trust in our own system, they should be granted
many of the protections of our system, so long as that can be done
safely. But these folk have lost some of their right to claim protection
under our system because fundamentally they reject the system.
> > > One does not need to be an expert on "international wartime legalese" to
> > > know that the conditions these *alleged* terrorists are being kept in does
> > > not meet the standards one would normally expect.
> >
> > The conditions of their incarceration in fact greatly exceed what I "would
> > normally expect" to be maintained for American prisoners held by foreign
> > powers, so what "one would normally expect" seems mostly irrelevant to me.
>
> That is irrelevant (even if true). But I do wonder how the next US POW's
> will be treated.
It certainly won't help. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much stock
to put in the whole idea of the Geneva Convention. How workable is it
really? In reality, the treatment of POWs depends on the perceptions of
the entity holding the prisoners. The Germans treated US and UK
prisoners relatively well because we treated their prisoners well, and
they probably really feared what would happen if they mistreated the
prisoners. Russian prisoners were not treated so well. Sure, signing of
treaties appears to be the reason, but ultimately, the reason is
expectations.
The conflicts I see in today's world are far messier than WWII. For the
most part, they are attempts by desperate leaders to gain or maintain
power. Unfortunately, rather than appealing to reason, and motivating
their citizens to join them in demanding fairness, they have decided
that the "Western world" is a pack of devils out to demolish their way
of life, and are selling that to their citizens.
Frank
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