Subject:
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Re: 6 degrees of separation..
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:39:20 GMT
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Viewed:
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284 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-eliopoulos103001.shtml
> >
> > Okay. So I have read Machiavelli. Do you leave it to someone else to state
> > unambiguously what this information tells us about our own government?
>
> Not sure what you're asking, exactly. But THAT won't stop me from
> pontificating nevertheless.
>
> I'm not sure an unambiguous statement can be made based solely on this one
> personal account (and I personally vouch for Paul's veracity... I have every
> reason to believe the things that he said happened, actually did happen, he
> is a kind and gentle man and extremely honest and competent, I learned a lot
> from his tenure as project manager that I applied (in my own tenures in that
> role) on other projects)...
>
> But clearly we *caused* a problem relating to Iraq, if we hadn't propped
> them up and led them on maybe they would not have had a mad dictator at the
> helm for so long already by 1991 and wouldn't have gone adventuring.
>
> Further, we didn't fix the problem we caused properly. When we left, all
> smug and satisfied, the dictatorships of the region (Iraq, Saudi and Kuwait)
> were all back in their previous places. Some win. Make a mess, don't clean
> it up, and wonder why it bites you later.
>
> Far better if we had broken up Iraq then (whether Turkey likes the idea of
> an independent Kurdistan or not notwithstanding) just as one of the
> proposals for Afghanistan being floated is suggesting now... the borders are
> wrong, (those pesky British Empire types (careerists at the Foreign office,
> no doubt) again) give parts of Afghanistan along ethnic division lines to
> the neighboring states and maybe it won't fight itself so much. Not sure
> about that, it needs careful consideraton before embracing or rejecting.
>
> Further, his story suggests to me that the State department (internally, via
> the careerists) seems to actively thwart the policy decisions and laws that
> the Cabinet and Congress put in place. This seems endemic to much of the
> current federal government but is particularly pernicious in this case.
>
> You can see the effects in the conduct of the diplomatic part of the current
> war. For the sake of a broad coalition we worry about Ramadan (as if a
> religious holiday would stop our enemies...) and tiptoeing around a bunch of
> dictators. Fah.
It is not just the dictators who respect Ramadan - do not forget that. If we
bomb through Ramadan we will be dammed as being insensitive. If we choose to
stop for Ramadan, we will be dammed for making a cynical token move.
Nevertheless, I expect starving will welcome a hiatus. Perhaps if we do have
a break, we can thrash out some sort of plan?
>
> So ya, there are a few conclusions for you. Not sure if they are unambiguous.
>
> Santosh posted a comparative list which is a bit tongue in cheek, but true
> nonetheless. And all those things need to be fixed. (along with shutting
> down the dictator's secret police training camp that Scott refers to as well.)
>
> But at the same time (warts and all) we're better than they are. Because if
> you try to compose a list of POSITIVES instead of negatives, our list looks
> a lot better than theirs.
I expect there is an Afghani family being bombed right now thinking the
exact opposite.
>
> But then I've rejected moral relativism as long as I've been here and then
> some. Careful readers always knew that.
That may well be, but careful readers will also note you have not answered
the question. ;)
Scott A
>
> ++Lar
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: 6 degrees of separation..
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| (...) Not sure what you're asking, exactly. But THAT won't stop me from pontificating nevertheless. I'm not sure an unambiguous statement can be made based solely on this one personal account (and I personally vouch for Paul's veracity... I have (...) (23 years ago, 31-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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