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I have to start this post with praise for Brickbay. Dan Jezek has created a
fabulous place unparalleled by any other service. He has also been very
responsive to user feedback. I know a number of changes that I suggested for
'Wanted Lists' have already come into place, long before I expected them.
Anyway, my issue isn't really with Brickbay much at all. It is with a
particular seller on that service. As such, brickbay isn't really responsible.
(As per their Terms of Service.) However, I wanted to see if anyone else had
strong feelings about orders being cancelled, as I do. Maybe I am in the
minority.
Well, here is what happened. I placed an order from Kevin Stephens in early
August. It was one of my first purchases on Brickbay. I paid via Pay Pal, and
got my Lego parts within a few days. Except there was one problem. The pieces
had a strange acidic odor to them. I gave them to my wife to smell. She
cringed. Honestly, the platic baggy they were packed in smelled worse. I took
the pieces out and let them air for a few days. The smell dissipated, and I
was satisfied. These were pieces I have been missing forever (2x9 lt grey
hinge plates - w/ 2x5 top) and so I wasn't going to let a little smell get in
my way. (About half of my Lego pieces have had substantial mold on them from
the storage days.)
Well, time to give feedback to the seller. I give Positive feedback, but
because I know buyers are sensitive to smells/quality I write this:
Type: Praise Member: Spitz(6) Date: 8/14/2000 Ref ID: 424
very fast and efficient transaction: pieces came a little smelly
Kevin writes this:
Type: Praise Member: Clark(34) Date: 8/7/2000 Ref ID: 424
Fast Paypal payment. Good emails. Great customer!
Then he emails me and offers a refund, and I explain it isn't necessary. (All
the emails between us are at the end of this post.)
I figure this is the end of the issue. Some weeks later I place another order
at his shop. A day later he cancels my order and writes:
Spitz,
The legos in my last shipment to you didn't meet your
expectations. I was surprised at this order. My legos
haven't changed & I do not wish to again disappoint you.
I've canceled this order. Please do not order from me
again.
Thanks,
Clark
Now, I would gladly have never ordered from him again if he had asked in the
orginal emails. But he didn't. He assumed I was dissatisfied and I wasn't. I
reality I wouldn't want to buy from someone who was that mad at me. Who knows
what they would do to the stuff I ordered?
However, the order had been placed. He had the pieces, and I had the money.
His store did not block my orders, so I assumed everything would be ok. The
brick bay TOS says this:
(http://www.brickbay.com/tos.asp)
---------------------------------
5. Buying.
If you bid on an item, you are obligated to complete the transaction. Bids are
not retractable. If you place an order from a shop, you are obligated to
complete the purchase.
6. Selling.
If you receive one or more bids at or above your stated minimum or reserve
price, then you are obligated to complete the transaction - UNLESS there is an
outage during the time that your auction ends. In that case, your auction
ending time will be prolonged by 24 hours.
If you have a shop and receive a valid order then you are obligated to complete
the transaction. You may not email bidders in a currently open auction being
run by a different seller, offering similar or the same item at price levels
below the current bid (bid siphoning), nor may you use an alias to place bids
on your auction.
---------------------------------
Now, I think it is clear. If you accept an order, you must complete the
transaction. Brickbay makes it quite clear that these should be considered
contracts. If I were to make and order and then not follow through, I would be
violating the TOS. If a seller does so it also appears to violate the TOS.
The only remedy listed in the terms is that the person's brickbay membership be
cancelled.
I then emailed the Brickbay admin (admittedly I was very mad at the time)
asking that Kevin Stephen's shop be closed. No further action was taken,
except a reply to say that this incident is not grounds for Brickbay membership
termination. (True, as Brickbay reserves the right to do it, but doesn't say
that it always will.)
So my question is this. Does anyone else think this is essentially wrong?
My thoughts:
I know that the ability for sellers to cancel needs to exist for technical
reasons, but this is not an agreed upon cancellation. If sellers are given the
opportunity to cancel, buyers should at least know beforehand. Also, buyers
should be given the option to cancel, if this option is to exist. Personally,
I don't think it should exist at all, but that is up to the Brickbay
administrator.
I also think that feedback should be allowed in response to such an action. As
such, I couldn't find any obvious way to sumbit feedback on a cancelled order.
The order was comletely removed from my 'list of orders.' I would suggest
Brickbay allow buyers to see cancelled orders with the ability to post
feedback. (I was allowed in this case.) To be fair, the sellers should be
able to do the same. Now I suppose the issue is over for me, but I am still
interested in hearing what others have to say about it. (If anything.)
-Alfred
-----------------
Email trail:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
From - Tue Sep 05 17:32:46 2000
Return-Path: <service@brickbay.com>
Subject: Brickbay Order Cancellation - Order #966
From: "service@brickbay.com" <service@brickbay.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:46:35 -0400
To: "alfredjr@diamondbullet.com" <alfredjr@diamondbullet.com>
Message-Id: <200008311048671.SM00210@WIP2W0005ATL2.usa.prod.interland.net>
Brickbay Service reports that order #966 has been cancelled on 8/31/2000
10:46:33 AM.
-----------------------------------
Buyer: Spitz
Seller: Clark
-----------------------------------
Reason For Cancelling:
My legos do not meet your expectations. They are "a little smelly."
-----------------------------------
Items in Order:
Black Slope, Decorated 45 2 x 1 with 3 Buttons, 3 Red Lamps/Yellow Panel (x1)
..... $0.80 each =3D $0.80
Black Hose, Flexible 8.5L with Tabs (x1) ..... $0.80 each =3D $0.80
Blue Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 2/3 with Studs on Sides (x1) ..... $1.00 each =3D
$1.00
Light Grey Plate 2 x 16 (x1) ..... $0.50 each =3D $0.50
Black Robot Arm (x1) ..... $0.12 each =3D $0.12
Yellow Turntable 2 x 2 Plate Base. Includes yellow base &
lt. grey top. (x1) ..... $0.25 each =3D $0.25
Blue Car Steering Wheel (x1) ..... $0.10 each =3D $0.10
Light Grey Hinge, Plate 2 x 5 complete with base, top & red pivot (x1) .....
$2.00 each =3D $2.00
-----------------------------------
Summary:
Grand Total: $5.57
Total Items: 8
Unique Items: 8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
From - Tue Sep 05 17:32:46 2000
Return-Path: <clarkster@att.net>
From: clarkster@att.net
To: alfredjr@diamondbullet.com
Subject: Brickbay Order #966 - Alfred Maier-Speredelozi
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 15:04:41 +0000
Message-Id:
<20000831150442.JKZX9297.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>
Spitz,
The legos in my last shipment to you didn't meet your
expectations. I was surprised at this order. My legos
haven't changed & I do not wish to again disappoint you.
I've canceled this order. Please do not order from me
again.
Thanks,
Clark
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
From - Tue Sep 05 17:32:46 2000
Return-Path: <alfredjr@si.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <39AEA128.C64F536A@si.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:17:12 -0400
From: Valerie & Alfred Maier-Speredelozzi <alfredjr@si.umich.edu>
To: admin@brickbay.com
CC: clarkster@att.net
Subject: [Fwd: Brickbay Order Cancellation - Order #966]
Hello,
Today I recieved this email. I have ordered from this person in the
past and gave honest (but positive) feedback. I believe that this
person is violating the terms of service on Brickbay, by cancelling my
order. I don't think it is right to cancel an order based on feedback
that I gave on a previous order.
I would request that Brickbay investigate this. The Brickbay terms
require that the contracts made online be upheld. If you cannot
reinstate the order, then I would request that this person's shop be
removed from Brickbay.
-Alfred Speredelozzi
("Spitz" or alfredjr@diamondbullet.com in your records.)
"service@brickbay.com" wrote:
>
> Brickbay Service reports that order #966 has been cancelled on 8/31/2000 • 10:46:33 AM.
> -----------------------------------
> Buyer: Spitz
> Seller: Clark
> -----------------------------------
> Reason For Cancelling:
>
> My legos do not meet your expectations. They are "a little smelly."
> -----------------------------------
> Items in Order:
>
> Black Slope, Decorated 45 2 x 1 with 3 Buttons, 3 Red Lamps/Yellow Panel • (x1) ..... $0.80 each = $0.80
> Black Hose, Flexible 8.5L with Tabs (x1) ..... $0.80 each = $0.80
> Blue Brick, Modified 1 x 2 x 2/3 with Studs on Sides (x1) ..... $1.00 each = • $1.00
> Light Grey Plate 2 x 16 (x1) ..... $0.50 each = $0.50
> Black Robot Arm (x1) ..... $0.12 each = $0.12
> Yellow Turntable 2 x 2 Plate Base. Includes yellow base &
> lt. grey top. (x1) ..... $0.25 each = $0.25
> Blue Car Steering Wheel (x1) ..... $0.10 each = $0.10
> Light Grey Hinge, Plate 2 x 5 complete with base, top & red pivot (x1) ..... • $2.00 each = $2.00
> -----------------------------------
> Summary:
>
> Grand Total: $5.57
> Total Items: 8
> Unique Items: 8
----
This is another email that I recieved:
Spitz,
The legos in my last shipment to you didn't meet your
expectations. I was surprised at this order. My legos
haven't changed & I do not wish to again disappoint you.
I've canceled this order. Please do not order from me
again.
Thanks,
Clark
--
____________________________________________________________________
| Valerie & Alfred Maier-Speredelozzi 2670 Fenwick Court |
| spitz23@worldnet.att.net Ann Arbor, MI 48104 |
| vsperede@engin.umich.edu (734) 477-9245 |
| alfredjr@si.umich.edu |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
From - Tue Sep 05 17:32:46 2000
Return-Path: <admin@brickbay.com>
From: admin@brickbay.com
Message-ID: <005a01c013fe$8f45a160$c3190ccf@compaq>
To: <clarkster@att.net>, <alfredjr@diamondbullet.com>
References:
<20000831205724.CNJC13787.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: TOS clarification for Order Cancellation - Order #966
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 00:22:39 -1000
This matter is in no way grounds for removal of a shop.
Some possible grounds for termination of a shop are:
* Non-payment of fees
* Fraud - Buyer sent payment and never received their items - has to happen
on more than 1 occasion
* 5 or more Negative feedbacks related to selling
The above will be soon included in the FAQ which needs to be updated.
----- Original Message -----
From: <clarkster@att.net>
To: <admin@brickbay.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:57 AM
Subject: TOS clarification for Order Cancellation - Order #966
> Dear brickbay,
> Sorry for getting you involved in this mess.
>
> I was under the impression that I reserved the right to
> refuse service to anyone (by canceling orders). I have
> done so on similar sites (canceling bids). If this is
> not the case, please let me know & I will close my
> brickbay shop (by putting a password on it until I
> fulfill the existing orders - I do not want to punish my
> other buyers.)
>
> Looking at your TOS, I am not clear about the policy. It
> says "We cannot and do not control whether or not
> sellers will complete the sale of items they offer or
> buyers will complete the purchase of items they have
> ordered.", but also says "If you have a shop and receive
> a valid order then you are obligated to complete the
> transaction." So I don't know. Allowing private sales on
> the site (with the password) seems to support the
> seller's right to choose his customers.
>
> I appreciate the effort & courtesy you have extended to
> me. I do not wish to be a burden. I await your descision.
>
> If you need any further information, please let me know,
> Kevin of Clark Corner
>
|
|
Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Cancelling orders -- a Brickbay issue
|
| You should not be seeking discuss this here. FAR better would be to seek legal counsel, and have them examine the brickbay TOS to see if any of it actually could be legally upheld in court. Cheers ... Geoffrey Hyde spitz <alfredjr@diamondbullet.com> (...) (24 years ago, 7-Sep-00, to lugnet.market.buy-sell-trade)
| | | Re: Cancelling orders -- a Brickbay issue
|
| (...) <big snip> (...) <huge snip of e-mail I didn't read - not relevant> It would seem logical that feedback from both sides of a cancelled order would be allowed. I expect there's usually a good reason (at least in the canceling person's mind) for (...) (24 years ago, 8-Sep-00, to lugnet.market.buy-sell-trade)
| | | Re: Cancelling orders -- a Brickbay issue
|
| (...) As (...) Brickbay doesn't show cancelled orders because of a technical difficulty at this time and consequently doesn't let buyers or sellers leave feedback for cancelled transactions. I wasn't going to say anything but since it has been (...) (24 years ago, 9-Sep-00, to lugnet.market.buy-sell-trade)
|
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