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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> The Gallery system is temporarally offline while we install
> the full-moderation function. From now on all files will
> be previewed by moderators before they can be viewed
> on the website. In addition, all previously uploaded
> files will be moderated before they are available
> again. This will not affect existing deep-links which
> continue to work at this time.
Kevin,
I'm sure you've thought through all the issues, and you've provided a huge
service to all of us, so please don't take this as a complaint, but, is this
the best solution? I've been on mailing lists where you were unmoderated
unless there was a problem, and then you got put on probation of sorts where
all your posts were moderated for a time. Would this sort of thing be
possible with Brickshelf? Once gallery owners have shown themselves to be
okay, give them clearance to post on their own, but if there is any problems
then they get put back under moderated status? I'm asking for obviously
selfish reasons--it's nice to upload a picture and get immediate feedback.
Especially when in the middle of a conversation on a forum such as this.
But there is also an unselfish reason just in that there is so much volume
that I worry about the moderators. I can't imagine how much time it would
take to look through every picture or even folder on Brickshelf, not to
mention the new stuff added each day. Heck, it takes me a chunk of time
each day to scan through and see what's new, and I skip whole piles of
folders in themes that I'm not interested in.
Oh, I'd also really like to know what prompted all this. Also, with
moderation, is there going to be a change in the sorts of things that are
okay to post? E.g. personal photos, "spoilers" (like the recent Harry
Potter set pictures that have presumably not been officially released yet),
Bionicle (just kidding, really), etc.
Bruce
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In lugnet.publish, Bruce Hietbrink writes:
> is this the best solution?
While it wasn't originally designed
for kids, the fact is many children visit the Gallery each
day. In light of that, there is no responsible option other
than full moderation.
KL
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Bruce Hietbrink writes:
> > is this the best solution?
>
> While it wasn't originally designed
> for kids, the fact is many children visit the Gallery each
> day. In light of that, there is no responsible option other
> than full moderation.
I can certainly agree to this ...
However, given the fact that up until yesterday, there were few (if any)
outstanding problems with inappropriate gallery content:
(1) Would it be reasonable to allow the galleries uploaded *prior* to
yesterday to remain fully active,
(2) to institute full moderation on all uploads beginning immediately, and
(3) to begin a process whereby all previously loaded content is reviewed, and
any further items that are deemed inappropriate are then removed?
It seems that disabling all of the older content is a far-reaching step.
Although I understand the rationale behind it, I don't believe that the
potential risk posed by some inappropriate content buried in a long-forgotten
folder is in proportion with the full disabling of all content. The additional
level of security provided by removing access to all old files would seem to be
exceedingly small.
There are nearly 16,000 folders on Brickshelf currently, and over 150,000 files
(including .mpg, .txt, .pdf, .doc, .xls, and more, in addition to image files).
The amount of time needed to review all of these folders and files is immense.
Kevin, is there any compromise that can be made to alleviate this roadblock?
I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that this is a crippling situation.
That being said, I want to convey my appreciation for your hard work in making
Brickshelf a tremendous resource. I am also very pleased with the clear
conscientiousness and responsibility that have prompted you to take these
steps. Regardless of how often is is said or implied, it is never enough to
convey the gratification that hundreds of us experience every day when we have
the opportunity to peruse Brickshelf. Thanks!
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Bruce Hietbrink writes:
> > is this the best solution?
>
> While it wasn't originally designed
> for kids, the fact is many children visit the Gallery each
> day. In light of that, there is no responsible option other
> than full moderation.
>
> KL
What makes kids different from adults? Are some things that are good for
adults bad for children?
I am a child. I'm twelve. (and turning 13 soon!) I have never seen any bad
content in b-shelf. Some things have occured, but were quickly removed. I'm
a bit sad at this moderating. One of the good qualitys of brickshelf was
that you could upload something and immedietly post it. My parents won't
let me make a website. B-shelf is the only way to display my pictures. I
have a space creation that I've now rendered, but I'm not going to bother
putting it on brickshelf yet.
*sigh*
-JHK
(I'm trying a new signature!)
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In lugnet.publish, John Henry Kruer writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> > In lugnet.publish, Bruce Hietbrink writes:
> > > is this the best solution?
> >
> > While it wasn't originally designed
> > for kids, the fact is many children visit the Gallery each
> > day. In light of that, there is no responsible option other
> > than full moderation.
> >
> > KL
>
> What makes kids different from adults? Are some things that are good for
> adults bad for children?
>
> I am a child. I'm twelve. (and turning 13 soon!) I have never seen any bad
> content in b-shelf. Some things have occured, but were quickly removed. I'm
> a bit sad at this moderating. One of the good qualitys of brickshelf was
> that you could upload something and immedietly post it. My parents won't
> let me make a website. B-shelf is the only way to display my pictures. I
> have a space creation that I've now rendered, but I'm not going to bother
> putting it on brickshelf yet.
I think you hit the issue on the head...that is the problem. By not
having images moderated, bad content is always a possibility. I think the
majority of the posters on-line are abiding with not putting bad stuff
on there.
I also liked the relatively pain-free upload features of brickshelf. You
could upload it, and then see it in relatively quickly on the world wide
web.
The really bad part about this is it will put a serious cramp in my
posting of pictures of various things I put up.
Ben
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John & All,
> What makes kids different from adults? Are some things that are good for
> adults bad for children?
Legally, there is a good deal of difference. The age to vote, drink, serve
in the military, get certain media products, etc. For Brickshelf, if there
was a large percentage of "adult" material on the site, Kevin would have to
put up disclaimers, etc. on it about people under 18.
> I am a child. I'm twelve. (and turning 13 soon!) I have never seen any bad
> content in b-shelf.
I have. It has been taken care of in the past, but there has been times
where Kevin did not get to it. That includes questionable material, plus
other LEGO related items that were not supposed to be uploaded recently.
> Some things have occured, but were quickly removed. I'm
> a bit sad at this moderating. One of the good qualitys of brickshelf was
> that you could upload something and immedietly post it. My parents won't
> let me make a website. B-shelf is the only way to display my pictures. I
> have a space creation that I've now rendered, but I'm not going to bother
> putting it on brickshelf yet.
The only thing I can say here is to remember Kevin is running this website
by himself, and he makes the rules, much like LUGNET. I can fully understand
Kevin's response. If you decide not to use it, that is your decision.
Scott S.
--
MichLUG member - http://www.michlug.org
Website: http://www.scottesanburn.org
LEGO: http://www.scottesanburn.org/legoindex.html
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"Kevin Loch" <kloch@opnsys.com> writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Bruce Hietbrink writes:
> > is this the best solution?
>
> While it wasn't originally designed
> for kids, the fact is many children visit the Gallery each
> day. In light of that, there is no responsible option other
> than full moderation.
I hope that you will consider letting others help with the moderating.
The task will quickly bury you if you try to take it all on yourself.
Also, if you decide to charge for access to upload pictures, you might
be able to give moderators incentive to do their job by not charging
for them to do so.
And *please* change your window width so it fits on an 800x600 display!
--Bill.
--
William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMAZING BUT TRUE: There is so much sand in northern Africa that if it were
spread out it would completely cover the Sahara Desert!
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Bruce Hietbrink writes:
> > is this the best solution?
>
> While it wasn't originally designed
> for kids, the fact is many children visit the Gallery each
> day. In light of that, there is no responsible option other
> than full moderation.
Then could you *please* implement a facility to move pics / folders ASAP, as
I for one will find it a pain having to have stuff re-moderated just to move
it to a different folder.
Regards
ROSCO
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In lugnet.publish, Ross Crawford writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> > In lugnet.publish, Bruce Hietbrink writes:
> > > is this the best solution?
> >
> > While it wasn't originally designed
> > for kids, the fact is many children visit the Gallery each
> > day. In light of that, there is no responsible option other
> > than full moderation.
>
> Then could you *please* implement a facility to move pics / folders ASAP, as
> I for one will find it a pain having to have stuff re-moderated just to move
> it to a different folder.
Maybe... BUT...
Right now I'd rather he put time into making the moderating facility a bit
more efficient for moderators, there is a terrific backlog of stuff to chew
through... I was just in there doing some and it's a lot of work. My fingers
are sore from all the mousing, some keyboard shortcuts might be nice.
Also...
Personally I'd like to be able to visit someone's folders while in moderator
mode and approve them, one by one as I look in each one, rather than being
presented them randomly.
There are some key contributors I'd go moderate first.. for instance right
now you cannot look at all of the work of James Mathis as not all of it has
come up randomly yet. So I would go visit his and get them cleared away (and
all of yours and all of Eric Sophies and and and, just to name a few heavy
hitters at random from many that we have)
Maybe for the older stuff the stuff that should be randomly presented should
be drawn from the folders that have the highest number of hits???
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In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Ross Crawford writes:
> > In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> > > In lugnet.publish, Bruce Hietbrink writes:
> > > > is this the best solution?
> > >
> > > While it wasn't originally designed
> > > for kids, the fact is many children visit the Gallery each
> > > day. In light of that, there is no responsible option other
> > > than full moderation.
> >
> > Then could you *please* implement a facility to move pics / folders ASAP, as
> > I for one will find it a pain having to have stuff re-moderated just to move
> > it to a different folder.
>
> Maybe... BUT...
>
> Right now I'd rather he put time into making the moderating facility a bit
> more efficient for moderators, there is a terrific backlog of stuff to chew
> through... I was just in there doing some and it's a lot of work. My fingers
> are sore from all the mousing, some keyboard shortcuts might be nice.
>
> Also...
>
> Personally I'd like to be able to visit someone's folders while in moderator
> mode and approve them, one by one as I look in each one, rather than being
> presented them randomly.
>
> There are some key contributors I'd go moderate first.. for instance right
> now you cannot look at all of the work of James Mathis as not all of it has
> come up randomly yet. So I would go visit his and get them cleared away (and
> all of yours and all of Eric Sophies and and and, just to name a few heavy
> hitters at random from many that we have)
>
> Maybe for the older stuff the stuff that should be randomly presented should
> be drawn from the folders that have the highest number of hits???
Ok since you hit on the moderation process and the massive backlog, would it
be better if we didn't submit and new or updated images to Brickshelf at
this time? I had some updated instructions I was going to post, but if it's
going to cause someone else's older stuff to get delayed I would hold off.
Maybe if the process could be explained a bit more we would understand what
all you are up agaist.
jt
ps. if you need help with the moderation process I'd be glad to contribute
some time.
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> Ok since you hit on the moderation process and the massive backlog, would it
> be better if we didn't submit and new or updated images to Brickshelf at
> this time? I had some updated instructions I was going to post, but if it's
> going to cause someone else's older stuff to get delayed I would hold off.
I have 2 question/comments...
First I noticed that there seems to be newly uploaded files. Is this the
case? I would think/hope that the old 150 thousand pictures be given the
green light first before some new stuff gets added to the pile. How is this
working?
Second, do the moderators see what section the files have been put into? I
see one file that is not lego related and should be in off-topic....
( http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=20265 )
This picture appears to be in the MOC section(1), and it is misplaced and
IMHO should not have been given the 'OK' in the MOC folder. There are many
users that put pictures in the wrong folder and I am hoping the moderation
would fix this. Hopefully this will be addressed, I find it annoying to see
items in the wrong folders - there is a reason the folders were put into place.
Mark P
http://www.landofbricks.com
(1)I am assuming the MOC folder because when I clicked on the MOC recent
folder it was there.
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In lugnet.publish, James Trobaugh wrote:
> Ok since you hit on the moderation process and the massive backlog,
> would it be better if we didn't submit and new or updated images to
> Brickshelf at this time? I had some updated instructions I was going
> to post, but if it's going to cause someone else's older stuff to get
> delayed I would hold off.
it doesn't matter if you submit new pictures up - the way the moderation
cgi works, it shows one of the (random) older folders first... so the
new folders will just get added to the queue, but probably not get
moderated until the older folders are done.
Dan
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In lugnet.publish, Dan Boger writes:
> In lugnet.publish, James Trobaugh wrote:
> > Ok since you hit on the moderation process and the massive backlog,
> > would it be better if we didn't submit and new or updated images to
> > Brickshelf at this time? I had some updated instructions I was going
> > to post, but if it's going to cause someone else's older stuff to get
> > delayed I would hold off.
>
> it doesn't matter if you submit new pictures up - the way the moderation
> cgi works, it shows one of the (random) older folders first... so the
> new folders will just get added to the queue, but probably not get
> moderated until the older folders are done.
Actually, the randomness is only to reduce the change of multiple
moderators working on the same folder. The subset of folders that
are randomized is selected from the newest folders. That way
new stuff and old stuff get moderated.
KL
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In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
>
> Personally I'd like to be able to visit someone's folders while in moderator
> mode and approve them, one by one as I look in each one, rather than being
> presented them randomly.
You can now do that.
You will now also see empty folders, as those need to be moderated
too.
Current moderation stats: 2537 out of 15634 folders moderated.
KL
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> Actually, the randomness is only to reduce the change of multiple
> moderators working on the same folder. The subset of folders that
> are randomized is selected from the newest folders. That way
> new stuff and old stuff get moderated.
sorry, my mistake. I thought you set it up to select from the oldest first,
so that the backlog will eventually diminish...?
Dan
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> Current moderation stats: 2537 out of 15634 folders moderated.
Wow! I just wanted to send a big thank you to the people moderating. I'm
impressed that that many have already been processed.
I'd also be happy to volunteer to help moderate.
Bruce
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> >
> > Personally I'd like to be able to visit someone's folders while in moderator
> > mode and approve them, one by one as I look in each one, rather than being
> > presented them randomly.
>
> You can now do that.
Wow! Thanks!
I am busily clearing Eric Sophie's whole tree as we speak. (had to start
somewhere, why not there)
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In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> > In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > >
> > > Personally I'd like to be able to visit someone's folders while in moderator
> > > mode and approve them, one by one as I look in each one, rather than being
> > > presented them randomly.
> >
> > You can now do that.
>
> Wow! Thanks!
>
> I am busily clearing Eric Sophie's whole tree as we speak. (had to start
> somewhere, why not there)
It's harder than I thought! For people with deeply nested folder structure
it is hard to tell what HAS and what has NOT been cleared yet. I found
myself logging out to check then logging back in a lot... (this was with
James Mathis, Eric I think is all done now)
If there was a way to mark which folders were and which weren't cleared yet
that would help. I THOUGHT i had it sussed by whether the folder got
replaced by the first pic in the folder but that's not definitive.
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> writes:
> It's harder than I thought! For people with deeply nested folder structure
> it is hard to tell what HAS and what has NOT been cleared yet. I found
> myself logging out to check then logging back in a lot... (this was with
> James Mathis, Eric I think is all done now)
Try running two browsers - e.g. one Netscape and one IE. Since they
have separate cookie jars, you shouldn't need to log in and out.
--Bill.
--
William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMAZING BUT TRUE: There is so much sand in northern Africa that if it were
spread out it would completely cover the Sahara Desert!
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In lugnet.publish, William R. Ward writes:
> "Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> writes:
> > It's harder than I thought! For people with deeply nested folder structure
> > it is hard to tell what HAS and what has NOT been cleared yet. I found
> > myself logging out to check then logging back in a lot... (this was with
> > James Mathis, Eric I think is all done now)
>
> Try running two browsers - e.g. one Netscape and one IE. Since they
> have separate cookie jars, you shouldn't need to log in and out.
OOOH, good idea. I did not think of that. I guess I better go install NS
then, do you have a recommendation for a good and stable and free version?
Meanwhile the elves have been steadily improving the interface while I was
working (I just cleared about 30 people's folders since I last posted, and I
keep seeing little changes) so it's getting easier.
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In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
>
> It's harder than I thought! For people with deeply nested folder structure
> it is hard to tell what HAS and what has NOT been cleared yet. I found
> myself logging out to check then logging back in a lot... (this was with
> James Mathis, Eric I think is all done now)
>
> If there was a way to mark which folders were and which weren't cleared yet
> that would help. I THOUGHT i had it sussed by whether the folder got
> replaced by the first pic in the folder but that's not definitive.
Boy, you guys are tough to please! You are right though,
everyone, not just moderators should be able to tell that
a subfolder is unmoderated. The right thing to do is have
an "unmoderated" icon, but as a quick hack, unmoderated
folders now have a border.
I also added "And On Topic" to the Safe link to clarify
it's purpose :) If it's Off Topic, use the "Off Topic"
link. If you aren't 100% sure it's safe *and* on topic,
select "Unsure".
KL
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> >
> > It's harder than I thought! For people with deeply nested folder structure
> > it is hard to tell what HAS and what has NOT been cleared yet. I found
> > myself logging out to check then logging back in a lot... (this was with
> > James Mathis, Eric I think is all done now)
> >
> > If there was a way to mark which folders were and which weren't cleared yet
> > that would help. I THOUGHT i had it sussed by whether the folder got
> > replaced by the first pic in the folder but that's not definitive.
>
> Boy, you guys are tough to please! You are right though,
> everyone, not just moderators should be able to tell that
> a subfolder is unmoderated. The right thing to do is have
> an "unmoderated" icon, but as a quick hack, unmoderated
> folders now have a border.
>
> I also added "And On Topic" to the Safe link to clarify
> it's purpose :) If it's Off Topic, use the "Off Topic"
> link. If you aren't 100% sure it's safe *and* on topic,
> select "Unsure".
Cool. Now what happens to the ones that are off topic? Previously the off
topic keyword seemed to just get added one more time each time you pressed
it but the folder would (randomly) keep reappearing until you said it was safe
Also what is "moderation level"?? That just appeared too.
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In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> > In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > >
> > > It's harder than I thought! For people with deeply nested folder structure
> > > it is hard to tell what HAS and what has NOT been cleared yet. I found
> > > myself logging out to check then logging back in a lot... (this was with
> > > James Mathis, Eric I think is all done now)
> > >
> > > If there was a way to mark which folders were and which weren't cleared yet
> > > that would help. I THOUGHT i had it sussed by whether the folder got
> > > replaced by the first pic in the folder but that's not definitive.
> >
> > Boy, you guys are tough to please! You are right though,
> > everyone, not just moderators should be able to tell that
> > a subfolder is unmoderated. The right thing to do is have
> > an "unmoderated" icon, but as a quick hack, unmoderated
> > folders now have a border.
> >
> > I also added "And On Topic" to the Safe link to clarify
> > it's purpose :) If it's Off Topic, use the "Off Topic"
> > link. If you aren't 100% sure it's safe *and* on topic,
> > select "Unsure".
>
> Cool. Now what happens to the ones that are off topic? Previously the off
> topic keyword seemed to just get added one more time each time you pressed
> it but the folder would (randomly) keep reappearing until you said it was safe
It used to do that, but now the Off Topic link also sets moderation level -1
(the same as Unsure) so it will disappear from the regular moderator page.
> Also what is "moderation level"?? That just appeared too.
-5 is temporary while thumbnails are being generated
-2 is Unsafe
-1 is Unsure
0 is unmoderated
1 is moderated Safe and On Topic
KL
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In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> > Boy, you guys are tough to please! You are right though,
> > everyone, not just moderators should be able to tell that
> > a subfolder is unmoderated. The right thing to do is have
> > an "unmoderated" icon, but as a quick hack, unmoderated
> > folders now have a border.
That border line helps a LOT!!!! But is it recursive? That would be best, if
there is one unmoderated folder in there somewhere, it's still "unsure" and
you need to go drilling.
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In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
>
> OOOH, good idea. I did not think of that. I guess I better go install NS
> then, do you have a recommendation for a good and stable and free version?
>
> Meanwhile the elves have been steadily improving the interface while I was
> working (I just cleared about 30 people's folders since I last posted, and I
> keep seeing little changes) so it's getting easier.
Don't you wish all software development was this efficient? It's even written
in C. Kids, don't try this at home :)
BTW, you are using Mozilla 1.1a right? Besides being a far superior
browser to IE or NS it has a fortuitous bug where it ignores
expires headers when you hit the 'back' button. That really helps
in the moderator view when you inspect a file and hit 'back'. IE
and NS (correctoy) load the page again which fetches another random
folder. Mozilla uses the illegal cache of the page instead.
KL
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> >
> > OOOH, good idea. I did not think of that. I guess I better go install NS
> > then, do you have a recommendation for a good and stable and free version?
> >
> > Meanwhile the elves have been steadily improving the interface while I was
> > working (I just cleared about 30 people's folders since I last posted, and I
> > keep seeing little changes) so it's getting easier.
>
> Don't you wish all software development was this efficient? It's even written
> in C. Kids, don't try this at home :)
>
> BTW, you are using Mozilla 1.1a right? Besides being a far superior
> browser to IE or NS it has a fortuitous bug where it ignores
> expires headers when you hit the 'back' button. That really helps
> in the moderator view when you inspect a file and hit 'back'. IE
> and NS (correctoy) load the page again which fetches another random
> folder. Mozilla uses the illegal cache of the page instead.
I'm actually using IE but I'll check out Mozilla...
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I'd just like to say again that if you (Kevin) need more free, good, help
you have four ready willing and able people here.
--
Thanx~
Nicole
http://www.geocities.com/duelarcane1/
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=drumm-family
http://www.geekshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=Drumm-Family
"Kevin Loch" <kloch@opnsys.com> wrote in message
news:GyECpE.9oM@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> > > In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > >
> > > > It's harder than I thought! For people with deeply nested folder • structure
> > > > it is hard to tell what HAS and what has NOT been cleared yet. I found
> > > > myself logging out to check then logging back in a lot... (this was • with
> > > > James Mathis, Eric I think is all done now)
> > > >
> > > > If there was a way to mark which folders were and which weren't cleared • yet
> > > > that would help. I THOUGHT i had it sussed by whether the folder got
> > > > replaced by the first pic in the folder but that's not definitive.
> > >
> > > Boy, you guys are tough to please! You are right though,
> > > everyone, not just moderators should be able to tell that
> > > a subfolder is unmoderated. The right thing to do is have
> > > an "unmoderated" icon, but as a quick hack, unmoderated
> > > folders now have a border.
> > >
> > > I also added "And On Topic" to the Safe link to clarify
> > > it's purpose :) If it's Off Topic, use the "Off Topic"
> > > link. If you aren't 100% sure it's safe *and* on topic,
> > > select "Unsure".
> >
> > Cool. Now what happens to the ones that are off topic? Previously the off
> > topic keyword seemed to just get added one more time each time you • pressed
> > it but the folder would (randomly) keep reappearing until you said it was • safe
> >
> It used to do that, but now the Off Topic link also sets moderation • level -1
> (the same as Unsure) so it will disappear from the regular moderator page.
>
> > Also what is "moderation level"?? That just appeared too.
>
> -5 is temporary while thumbnails are being generated
> -2 is Unsafe
> -1 is Unsure
> 0 is unmoderated
> 1 is moderated Safe and On Topic
>
> KL
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch wrote:
> BTW, you are using Mozilla 1.1a right? Besides being a far superior
> browser to IE or NS it has a fortuitous bug where it ignores expires
> headers when you hit the 'back' button. That really helps in the
> moderator view when you inspect a file and hit 'back'. IE and NS
> (correctoy) load the page again which fetches another random folder.
> Mozilla uses the illegal cache of the page instead.
unless there's an explicit header saying the cgi has expired (which i
didn't check), I say mozilla is doing the Right Thing, while IE and NS
don't. A GET CGI is supposed to give the same output when it's
parameters are the same, so browsers are supposed to cache it's output:
from rfc 2068:
In particular, the convention has been established that the GET and
HEAD methods should never have the significance of taking an action
other than retrieval. These methods should be considered "safe." This
allows user agents to represent other methods, such as POST, PUT and
DELETE, in a special way, so that the user is made aware of the fact
that a possibly unsafe action is being requested.
and
Methods may also have the property of "idempotence" in that (aside
from error or expiration issues) the side-effects of N > 0 identical
requests is the same as for a single request. The methods GET, HEAD,
PUT and DELETE share this property.
not saying that this is strictly followed, but this is how it's supposed
to work :)
Dan
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> >
> > OOOH, good idea. I did not think of that. I guess I better go install NS
> > then, do you have a recommendation for a good and stable and free version?
> >
> > Meanwhile the elves have been steadily improving the interface while I was
> > working (I just cleared about 30 people's folders since I last posted, and I
> > keep seeing little changes) so it's getting easier.
>
> Don't you wish all software development was this efficient? It's even written
> in C. Kids, don't try this at home :)
>
> BTW, you are using Mozilla 1.1a right? Besides being a far superior
> browser to IE or NS it has a fortuitous bug where it ignores
> expires headers when you hit the 'back' button. That really helps
> in the moderator view when you inspect a file and hit 'back'. IE
> and NS (correctoy) load the page again which fetches another random
> folder. Mozilla uses the illegal cache of the page instead.
>
> KL
I use IE, and was quite surprised when that happened to me the first time
(checking a folder and going back, just to find that another random folder
appeared rather than the one I was exploring). Since then, I just open the
questionable file/folder in another window so I can view it. I know, it
could be considered to be an extra step, but I'm used to it.
Us moderators are doing our best to wade through all the files as soon as
possible. It's a good thing I'm on vacation, Kevin picked a really good time
to do this, otherwise I wouldn't be able to help out as much.
Rich
--
Have Fun! C-Ya!
Legoman34
*****
Legoman34 (Richard W. Schamus)... (My views do not necessarily express the
views of my employer...)
BRICKFEST 2002 IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER... START MAKING PLANS TODAY.
Card carrying LUGNET MEMBER: #70
Visit http://www.geocities.com/legoman34.geo/
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*****
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In lugnet.publish, Dan Boger writes:
>
> unless there's an explicit header saying the cgi has expired
Yes.
A GET CGI is supposed to give the same output when it's
> parameters are the same, so browsers are supposed to cache it's output:
>
> from rfc 2068:
>
> In particular, the convention has been established that the GET and
> HEAD methods should never have the significance of taking an action
> other than retrieval. These methods should be considered "safe." This
> allows user agents to represent other methods, such as POST, PUT and
> DELETE, in a special way, so that the user is made aware of the fact
> that a possibly unsafe action is being requested.
Where does it say that a GET request always returns the same content?
a GET for a dynamic page is no different than a GET for a "static" page
that might change at some point. Where the Expires header is set it should
always be obeyed. Now, I am setting "Expires: 0" instead of a properly
formatted date string, so Mozilla may be ignoring it, where IE and NS
know what that means.
> and
>
> Methods may also have the property of "idempotence" in that (aside
> from error or expiration issues) the side-effects of N > 0 identical
> requests is the same as for a single request. The methods GET, HEAD,
> PUT and DELETE share this property.
>
> not saying that this is strictly followed, but this is how it's supposed
> to work :)
>
> Dan
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In lugnet.publish, Kevin Loch writes:
> In lugnet.publish, Dan Boger writes:
> >
> > unless there's an explicit header saying the cgi has expired
>
> Yes.
wait - am I completely confused here? I thought we wanted the cgi output to
NOT expire? so that "back" will show you the same page?
> Where does it say that a GET request always returns the same content?
> a GET for a dynamic page is no different than a GET for a "static" page
> that might change at some point. Where the Expires header is set it should
> always be obeyed. Now, I am setting "Expires: 0" instead of a properly
> formatted date string, so Mozilla may be ignoring it, where IE and NS
> know what that means.
hmmm... :
13.9 Side Effects of GET and HEAD
Unless the origin server explicitly prohibits the caching of their
responses, the application of GET and HEAD methods to any resources
SHOULD NOT have side effects that would lead to erroneous behavior if
these responses are taken from a cache. They may still have side
effects, but a cache is not required to consider such side effects in
its caching decisions. Caches are always expected to observe an
origin server's explicit restrictions on caching.
We note one exception to this rule: since some applications have
traditionally used GETs and HEADs with query URLs (those containing a
"?" in the rel_path part) to perform operations with significant side
effects, caches MUST NOT treat responses to such URLs as fresh unless
the server provides an explicit expiration time. This specifically
means that responses from HTTP/1.0 servers for such URIs should not
be taken from a cache. See section 9.1.1 for related information.
it does say that "GET" should be ok to be used from the cache, but gives the
exception that if it has a "?" in it, it will not be cached unless the
server specifically ask for caching.
so I guess you're right - in general, GET cgis should not be cached. in
this case, though, we do want it cahced, so you should set an expiration
header in the future - something like "+1d" or something. doesn't a "0"
mean the content has expired Jan 1, 1970?
Dan
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