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In lugnet.cad.dev, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> In lugnet.cad, Franklin W. Cain writes:
> > > Which raises the question (for me anyway) --
> > > where can I get these parts before they're voted upon?
> > Regrettably, the only way I know of to get any
> > of the DAT files posted but not yet packaged and released,
> > is to hunt for them one-by-one here at LUGNet.CAD... :-(
>
> Okay, this is getting ridiculous. We need a parts update. There are, what,
> hundreds?, of parts wasting in the pipeline. How much longer are they going
> to sit there? How can holding the parts for this long be justified?
It can't be "justified", but stamping one's foot isn't going to help,
Jeremy, and you know that.
I think what we need is an unoffical update. Package them up as unofficial
and tell people to take their chances. But realise that there is probably at
least one part in that update that will break something. What part is it?
Dunno. That's what the review process determines.
Rather than just dumping theme somewhere, though, they DO need to be
packaged up the same way the other releases are. Then people can install
them the same way, and when review happens, the replacements for the ones
that have issues that missed getting identified in this unreviewed update
will be in a subsequent update and replace them.
Note that I am not volunteering for this, if you think the delays are bad
now, just put me in charge and pine for "now" as "the good old days" because
I'd make things worse.
++Lar
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> It can't be "justified", but stamping one's foot isn't going to help,
> Jeremy, and you know that.
Fine, okay, you can call it what you want. The fact remains, something
needs to be done. I'm making it known the only way I know how. The delay
in the parts update system is becoming pretty unpopular, and it begs the
question: is this being done for the users, or for the system?
> I think what we need is an unoffical update. Package them up as unofficial
> and tell people to take their chances. But realise that there is probably at
> least one part in that update that will break something. What part is it?
> Dunno. That's what the review process determines.
As long as the preview is released with sufficient (read: any) warning of
such, I doubt people will complain.
A *significant* side benefit of this is that obviously broken pieces will
have a better chance of being found before being put through the voting process.
> Rather than just dumping theme somewhere, though, they DO need to be
> packaged up the same way the other releases are. Then people can install
> them the same way, and when review happens, the replacements for the ones
> that have issues that missed getting identified in this unreviewed update
> will be in a subsequent update and replace them.
*sigh* I disagree.
Firstly, you don't want any kind of official stamp on an unofficial
distribution. This is so that the effort it takes for individual end-users
to install unofficial parts has a better chance of being remembered, and so
that there's no confusion about the difference between an offical and an
unofficial update. If someone *really* wants to play with an unofficial
part, then you need to assume a minimum amount of competency for the
end-user. This is equally true for parts/* and p/* .
Also, since time is a huge issue here, why go through the effort of
pretty-packaging them at all?
Lastly, and this is the biggie, if someone's looking for a part and it only
exists in the unofficial parts preview, then that someone is probably not
likely to want to dump the entire unofficial set into their parts directory.
The thing is, there's a bottleneck here because one or several people don't
have the time to push the update system changes through. This is
understandable and perfectly fine, given the volunteer nature of LDraw.
Offload that time onto the end-users, then.
Cheers,
- jsproat
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I mostly agree so I mostly snipped...
In lugnet.cad.dev, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> The thing is, there's a bottleneck here because one or several people don't
> have the time to push the update system changes through. This is
> understandable and perfectly fine, given the volunteer nature of LDraw.
> Offload that time onto the end-users, then.
How does that help? That is, suppose it would take 40 man hours of work to
resolve the bottleneck and get the new process on line and running. If that
40 hours avoids 400 or 4000 hours of user effort, isn't it worth it for the
users to wait?
I dunno.
Maybe you are saying let the users decide for themselves?
Would you be willing to volunteer to help get the new process fixed?
Conversely, you said that it was OK that users have to go to extra effort to
get parts. Right now, the extra effort every user goes through is to search
the entire newsgroup for the dat file. Would you be willing to go find 10,
and put them on a community updateable resource, if everyone else that was
complaining about the bottleneck also went and found 10 different ones and
posted them to the same resource too? Maybe that would BE your 'interim update'
If not, what did you mean about not wanting an officialy
packaged/installeable update, exactly?
I am just brainstorming (and this may generate me some flame mail too, I dunno)
Please brainstorm too, about what users could do to alleviate this, at least
temporarily. I have seen previews of the new system and it will be very very
nice once it is done.
> Cheers,
> - jsproat
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.cad.dev, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> > The thing is, there's a bottleneck here because one or several people don't
> > have the time to push the update system changes through. This is
> > understandable and perfectly fine, given the volunteer nature of LDraw.
> > Offload that time onto the end-users, then.
> How does that help? That is, suppose it would take 40 man hours of work to
> resolve the bottleneck and get the new process on line and running. If that
> 40 hours avoids 400 or 4000 hours of user effort, isn't it worth it for the
> users to wait?
The bugger here is that we could play what-if with the schedule all year
long. I won't do that.
> Maybe you are saying let the users decide for themselves?
Why not? Aren't the users why the whole LDraw thing happens, anyway?
> Would you be willing to volunteer to help get the new process fixed?
I would, but only to get it done my way -- quick & cheap & dirty. I doubt
that would go over very well with the LDraw Powers...
> Conversely, you said that it was OK that users have to go to extra effort to
> get parts. Right now, the extra effort every user goes through is to search
> the entire newsgroup for the dat file. Would you be willing to go find 10,
> and put them on a community updateable resource, if everyone else that was
> complaining about the bottleneck also went and found 10 different ones and
> posted them to the same resource too? Maybe that would BE your 'interim update'
I could already do that now. Why should anyone have to search the
newsgroups for DAT files if they've already been collected?
Or perhaps that's the problem. Have they been collected? Or have they been
only partially collected? And if that is the case, where did the collection
stop?
> If not, what did you mean about not wanting an officialy
> packaged/installeable update, exactly?
An unofficial update shouldn't be "installable"; that is, it should not be
as easy to snarf as an official update. I gave some (IMO) very good reasons
in my post before. To summarize:
a) it should take more effort to install since the greater effort is
remembered more by the end-user
b) it should take more effort to install in order to reflect the greater
risk of bad parts
c) people who want to take the greater risk with preview pieces should take
a similar responsibility for their preview-philic actions, and therefore be
familiar enough with LDraw to recover from a bad piece, and therefore be
familiar with LDraw enough to install new primitives as well as new parts
d) packaging unofficial pieces with ARJ or LHA or ZIP or whatever, in the
exact same format as official updates, takes more time than just putting the
files out there
e) people looking for parts in the preview set probably won't want the
entire set all at once
f) (and this one is new) recovering from the whole set of preview parts is
much more difficult for the end-user than recovering from a small handful of
preview parts
> I am just brainstorming (and this may generate me some flame mail too, I dunno)
I like my solution -- just put them out there for download with a
disclaimer. It's the simplest in terms of work on the maintainer's end, and
enforces a certain level of competency on the end-user's part.
Any solution that takes the least amount of time & effort with the maximum
amount of exposure for preview parts would be good, however. As long as
something is done to get the parts out.
> I have seen previews of the new system and it will be very very
> nice once it is done.
I'm sure it will be. But it hasn't been available, and won't be until it's
done, and it's blocking the new parts until it is done.
This, BTW, is the one of the top problems in the software industry, and one
which you should be very familiar with. I don't know what to call it, but
it's somewhat related to crepping featuritis, and can turn a very good piece
of software into vaporware.
Cheers,
- jsproat
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> just put them out there for download ...
> It's the simplest in terms of work on the maintainer's end, and
> enforces a certain level of competency on the end-user's part.
Ummmm.... Isn't that what the lugnet.cad.dat.parts newsgroup (or Tore's temp
parts tracker) is for? You go looking for the part you want and install it.
That's what I've been doing. What I wanted when I asked my original
question (which has now gone way beyong the quasi-polite questioning that I
started) was an official update so that I could install it on many different
computers easily without having to manually do it.
-Orion
(This is what I get for coming out of lurk mode)
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Orion Pobursky writes:
>
> Ummmm.... Isn't that what the lugnet.cad.dat.parts newsgroup (or Tore's temp
> parts tracker) is for? You go looking for the part you want and install it.
> That's what I've been doing.
Orion, you bring up a great idea that could solve the problem in the
interum. Take all the parts you can find on Tore's tracker and in the parts
newsgroup, put them in a self extracting archive or .zip file, and post the
file somewhere like brickshelf with a disclaimer that they are pre-release.
I think this would satisfy most people until the new system is ready to go
online. This would also help you solve your problem of multiple installs.
-Chuck
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I think I'll do that, if I can find the time (work in the real world's going
to get pretty hectic over the next month). Thanks Chuck.
-Orion
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Orion Pobursky writes:
> I think I'll do that, if I can find the time (work in the real world's going
> to get pretty hectic over the next month). Thanks Chuck.
>
> -Orion
You might also ask the parts author's permission before including their
parts in the "pre-release". Some people can be touchy about this. I'm not a
parts author, so no need to ask me.
-Chuck
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Chuck Sommerville writes:
> I'm not a
> parts author, so no need to ask me.
>
> -Chuck
OK, so I lied, I guess I am a parts author of sorts:
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2288
These are on Tore's tracker. Feel free to include my updated heads.
-Chuck
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Hello Chuck,
> > Ummmm.... Isn't that what the lugnet.cad.dat.parts newsgroup (or Tore's • temp
> > parts tracker) is for? You go looking for the part you want and install • it.
> > That's what I've been doing.
Yes. That is a nice idea but some of the parts dont still have pattern
numbers or copyrights are missing or something like that.
> Orion, you bring up a great idea that could solve the problem in the
> interum. Take all the parts you can find on Tore's tracker and in the • parts
> newsgroup, put them in a self extracting archive or .zip file, and post • the
> file somewhere like brickshelf with a disclaimer that they are • pre-release.
> I think this would satisfy most people until the new system is ready to go
> online. This would also help you solve your problem of multiple installs.
Hmm.. I am a parts authour but I really would appreciate it more if some at
least checks these parts closely for errors and form and get small official
releases on their way instead of a whole big mess of unofficial not right
named and war parts. When I build a model with new parts in LDRaw I want to
be sure that i can open this model a year later and it still looks the same
and no prts are missing or changed their orienation or something like that.
That would be worst case for me.... I would not like the parts I did to be
in this scenario.
I like the idea with little official parts updates much more!
Greetings,
Carsten
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As you can imagine, behind the scenes discussion is running fast and furious
(not in the Mad sense, in the fast sense...oh never mind) The following are
rambles/my opinions, not official statements of position (remember I am the
nonvoting member who plays gadfly...). Take them with a large grain of salt
Doing an official vote on a small chunk is too much work for the benefit and
counter productive to long term goals so not as likely to happen... the real
way, once done, is better. (unless there were a putsch and the entire
current "board" were voted out and entirely new people came in and started
running things. Not very nice and not very likely to happen, either and if
it did you would see large delays while the new gang tried to come to grips
with what the heck it means to do a parts release. Tres work!)
if something unofficial came out from the gang, it probably would NOT be the
way Sproat wants it. Orion's install problem matters a lot. What Sproat
wants is already available now, you just have to dig harder to find the
parts. It probably would be a big zip or exe packaged similarly to more
official installs.
If that bugged Sproat or whoever, nothing is stopping him or whoever from
collecting and making available whatever alternative mechanism they like.
Nothing except the authors wishes and the license, which isn't in place yet
but will be soon for new submissions, we hope.
In lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, Carsten Schmitz writes:
> Hello Chuck,
>
>
> > > Ummmm.... Isn't that what the lugnet.cad.dat.parts newsgroup (or Tore's
> > > temp
> > > parts tracker) is for? You go looking for the part you want and install
> > > it.
> > > That's what I've been doing.
>
> Yes. That is a nice idea but some of the parts dont still have pattern
> numbers or copyrights are missing or something like that.
This is a problem to the scheme. Can Authors who are paying attention fix
this as much as possible??
> > Orion, you bring up a great idea that could solve the problem in the
> > interum. Take all the parts you can find on Tore's tracker and in the
> > parts
> > newsgroup, put them in a self extracting archive or .zip file, and post
> > the
> > file somewhere like brickshelf with a disclaimer that they are
> > pre-release.
> Hmm.. I am a parts authour but I really would appreciate it more if some at
> least checks these parts closely for errors and form and get small official
> releases on their way instead of a whole big mess of unofficial not right
> named and war parts. When I build a model with new parts in LDRaw I want to
> be sure that i can open this model a year later and it still looks the same
> and no prts are missing or changed their orienation or something like that.
Easy fix for that. Don't install this unofficial release, then. If you
install it, you are committing that you want parts now even if not quite
right, rather than more perfect parts later. You can't have it both ways.
Sproat dinged me (rightly so) about scope creep (that's what it is called,
not creeping featurism) pushing out the new tracker end date. Well, the
scope is what it is for this parts release. There is the usual triangle here
of effort, quality level, and calendar. Effort isn't available to be
increased so if calendar is to be moved, quality level has to give.
> That would be worst case for me.... I would not like the parts I did to be
> in this scenario.
Well this adds complexity if someone has to figure out what is in and what
is out. Maybe major authors need to repost or dump to some common place the
parts they are willing to see in this interim release and if not present,
let the users who want them ask the authors nicely if they will relent.
> I like the idea with little official parts updates much more!
Not very likely to happen with the current administration. And before you
take to the streets and advocate revolution, consider the alternative. ;-)
++Lar
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Hello Larry, Jeremy
I'm following this thread very closely... and i have to jump in at this
point.
>
> Would you be willing to volunteer to help get the new process fixed?
I think Tim has waited to long to get help from other volunteers. There has
been at least some people in the newsgroups and some via email offering help
to get the parts update on the way - including me. I did not even get an
answer. It is one thing to be busy and stressed but it is another thing not
to notice that you could accept some help when you are just overloaded.
I have seen a whole company breaking down by this because some person did
not know when to delegate tasks to manage the whole rest... and i see Tim
Courtney more in the function of a manager.. I think he has to realize that
by hisself first.
Greetings,
Carsten
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"Carsten Schmitz" <casz@gmx.de> wrote in message news:GCMtBs.ByD@lugnet.com...
> I think Tim has waited to long to get help from other volunteers. There has
> been at least some people in the newsgroups and some via email offering help
> to get the parts update on the way - including me. I did not even get an
> answer. It is one thing to be busy and stressed but it is another thing not
> to notice that you could accept some help when you are just overloaded.
>
> I have seen a whole company breaking down by this because some person did
> not know when to delegate tasks to manage the whole rest... and i see Tim
> Courtney more in the function of a manager.. I think he has to realize that
> by hisself first.
Good point, and I agree. I've gotta work out some management stuff on my own -
especially this week. I'll also be lowering my standards of expectations for
contributors - if people want to contribute pages, just make a text file of the
content, send me the images and the text, and I'll format it. Its too much of a
pain for both me and the contributor to have to format it my way themselves -
they have to get used to it, more demand on them, and I'm such a perfectionist I
end up fixing it anyways.
But back to the parts issue, I'm really not responsible at all. Steve's the
Head Parts Guy. And Steve is working on a parts update system now, we just have
to work out the issue of the immediate update (unofficial, disclaimers attached,
is my opinion of the way to go) to satisfy the users and come back and do the
update right later (using the new system) and have the parts officially added.
I think the parts should be zipped into an unofficial archive, hosted on the
site under /download/updates/unofficial/ and with a big disclaimer attached.
Then the system Steve is working on should be completed, and the parts run
through it and updated properly and added into the official updates.
--
Tim Courtney - tim@ldraw.org
http://www.ldraw.org - Centralized LDraw Resources
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"Tim Courtney" <tim@zacktron.com> wrote in message
news:GCMuJ8.E5M@lugnet.com...
> I think the parts should be zipped into an unofficial archive, hosted on • the
> site under /download/updates/unofficial/ and with a big disclaimer • attached.
> Then the system Steve is working on should be completed, and the parts run
> through it and updated properly and added into the official updates.
I think this needs a little modification - if the parts could be zipped
separately then people could just get the ones they want, and as new
unofficial parts are sent they could be added as individual zips rather than
having to keep creating new batches of parts. If only I had a web server
with MS ASP on I could throw together a system to handle uploading of parts
and automatic conversion to zip format in about 30 minutes, it's that
simple. I guess I'm going to have to look into getting ADSL at home and
running a web server on my laptop so I can help out with this sort of thing
:)
BTW: if the unofficial releases are individually zipped you could also link
the parts ref to them so people could search for and download just the parts
they want. Not sure how practical that would be (plus I guess you'd need to
link all the officially parts to a "offical release" page and the "not done"
parts to a "not done yet" page which could make things a bit difficult).
Dan
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Daniel Crichton writes:
> I think this needs a little modification - if the parts could be zipped
> separately then people could just get the ones they want, and as new
> unofficial parts are sent they could be added as individual zips rather than
> having to keep creating new batches of parts. If only I had a web server
> [...]
Let's not reinvent the wheel. This process is already largely done, I would
think, as part of the new parts update system now in development. The
interim solution needs to be quick & easy for the implementors.
Cheers,
- jproat
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> Let's not reinvent the wheel. This process is already largely done, I would
> think, as part of the new parts update system now in development. The
> interim solution needs to be quick & easy for the implementors.
The problem I see with releasing the current unofficial parts in a single
download is that it's going to make it harder for anyone who wants to help
out in checking individual parts - they're going to have to download a large
ZIP file of parts to find the one they want, and if the new system takes a
long time to get up and running then I can see that in the near future there
will be a call for yet another unofficial interim release and then there
will be 2, or 3, or more lumps of parts to download, making it even harder
to find individual parts. The whole point of posting unofficial parts to
cad.dat.parts, at least as far as I could tell in my short time here, was to
provide a way for LDraw (and clones) users to review the parts and suggest
fixes, basically providing a way to get the parts completed to near
perfection before being added to the official release. By providing a ZIP
containing all the current unofficial parts that Steve has collected it's
obvious that this just won't happen, and Steve doesn't have time to review
them all himself (I'm making a sweeping assumption here!). I can see why an
official release is better - unofficial releases will just end up with only
cursory checks made on the parts and dilute the quality of the existing parts.
What a turn around - I've gone from asking for individual part downloads to
none at all!
Dan
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Tim Courtney writes:
> I think the parts should be zipped into an unofficial archive, hosted on the
> site under /download/updates/unofficial/ and with a big disclaimer attached.
> Then the system Steve is working on should be completed, and the parts run
> through it and updated properly and added into the official updates.
This would work. Just don't take Steve off of the new system -- with him
working on it, it's gonna be good.
Cheers,
- jsproat
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In lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> In lugnet.cad.dev, Tim Courtney writes:
> > I think the parts should be zipped into an unofficial archive, hosted on the
> > site under /download/updates/unofficial/ and with a big disclaimer attached.
> > Then the system Steve is working on should be completed, and the parts run
> > through it and updated properly and added into the official updates.
>
> This would work. Just don't take Steve off of the new system -- with him
> working on it, it's gonna be good.
You can't have your cake and eat it too, Jeremy! Who do you think would be
doing a significant portion (hopefully not all, but non zero) of the
packaging task?
++Lar
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> > In lugnet.cad.dev, Tim Courtney writes:
> > > I think the parts should be zipped into an unofficial archive, hosted on the
> > > site under /download/updates/unofficial/ and with a big disclaimer attached.
> > > Then the system Steve is working on should be completed, and the parts run
> > > through it and updated properly and added into the official updates.
> > This would work. Just don't take Steve off of the new system -- with him
> > working on it, it's gonna be good.
> You can't have your cake and eat it too, Jeremy! Who do you think would be
> doing a significant portion (hopefully not all, but non zero) of the
> packaging task?
Zipping up the parts already collected: 5 minutes
Writing the disclaimer: 2 minutes
Uploading zipfile and disclaimer to LDRAW.ORG: 3 minutes
Catching the warm glow as the parts preview is released: Priceless.
For the really big tasks there's a design committee. For everything else,
there's SmallTask.
Cheers,
- jsproat
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> In lugnet.cad.dev, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, Jeremy H. Sproat writes:
> > > In lugnet.cad.dev, Tim Courtney writes:
> > > > I think the parts should be zipped into an unofficial archive, hosted on the
> > > > site under /download/updates/unofficial/ and with a big disclaimer attached.
> > > > Then the system Steve is working on should be completed, and the parts run
> > > > through it and updated properly and added into the official updates.
> > > This would work. Just don't take Steve off of the new system -- with him
> > > working on it, it's gonna be good.
> > You can't have your cake and eat it too, Jeremy! Who do you think would be
> > doing a significant portion (hopefully not all, but non zero) of the
> > packaging task?
>
> Zipping up the parts already collected: 5 minutes
>
> Writing the disclaimer: 2 minutes
>
> Uploading zipfile and disclaimer to LDRAW.ORG: 3 minutes
>
> Catching the warm glow as the parts preview is released: Priceless.
>
> For the really big tasks there's a design committee. For everything else,
> there's SmallTask.
Do you really think this is a 10 minute job? If so you must really have a
low opinion of the gang, then, that they would hold out on you to save a
mere 10 minutes of their time.
I hope that's not the case, but rather that you're just really confused
about how hard it is to do this.
What terrible choices you face me with, though.
Let this drop for a bit, eh? Something will be done. Time to let this rest
before emotions crest above flood stage.
++Lar
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> Do you really think this is a 10 minute job? If so you must really have a
> low opinion of the gang, then, that they would hold out on you to save a
> mere 10 minutes of their time.
> I hope that's not the case, but rather that you're just really confused
> about how hard it is to do this.
Well tell me then. Larry. How hard is it to just zip up the parts that have
already been submitted, and why? Are they all not sitting in a directory
somewhere on someone's hard drive? Or are they really scattered in an
ad-hoc fashion?
Trust me, I don't intend to argue needlessly over this. But someone's
misinformed; and if it's me, I'd like to fix that.
Cheers,
- jsproat
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how about making all unofficial parts go to "unofficial" group like bricks
and plates?
--
And they said 'Computers will never be in general use'
"Sproaticus" <jsproat@io.com> wrote in message news:GCo1LK.Gpx@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.cad.dev, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > Do you really think this is a 10 minute job? If so you must really have a
> > low opinion of the gang, then, that they would hold out on you to save a
> > mere 10 minutes of their time.
>
> > I hope that's not the case, but rather that you're just really confused
> > about how hard it is to do this.
>
> Well tell me then. Larry. How hard is it to just zip up the parts that • have
> already been submitted, and why? Are they all not sitting in a directory
> somewhere on someone's hard drive? Or are they really scattered in an
> ad-hoc fashion?
>
> Trust me, I don't intend to argue needlessly over this. But someone's
> misinformed; and if it's me, I'd like to fix that.
>
> Cheers,
> - jsproat
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In lugnet.cad.dev, Sproaticus wrote:
> In lugnet.cad.dev, Tim Courtney writes:
> > I think the parts should be zipped into an unofficial archive, hosted on the
> > site under /download/updates/unofficial/ and with a big disclaimer attached.
> > Then the system Steve is working on should be completed, and the parts run
> > through it and updated properly and added into the official updates.
>
> This would work. Just don't take Steve off of the new system -- with him
> working on it, it's gonna be good.
I think I can use my part-voting-preparation utilities to generate a
webpage like the ones we use for voting. So people could check out what
the unofficial parts are, and either download them all in one shot, or just
grab what they want.
Steve
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