 | | Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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Hey guys, I'm enclosing something I wrote for my English class, just a little food for thought. It was to be based on a play, "The Night Thoreau Spent in Jail", which I actually really liked (which, unfortunately, is a rarity for class reading (...) (24 years ago, 28-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) One of these days I really must read this play, since it is significant to me on many fronts. The play is definitely a commentary on the US, but is also an interesting window into my own faith of Unitarian Universalist as both Thoreau and (...) (24 years ago, 28-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Ya, Shiri, what Frank said! Thanks for sharing. I don't have the personal experience with the environs of Thoreau and Emerson that Frank does, but you can be sure that this "work within the system" vs. "we need active revolution/active (...) (24 years ago, 29-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) When a law is unjust we are under no obligation to follow said law. It may not be worth breaking, but if it is, then there is nothing wrong with doing so. (...) Good for him. ;-) (...) I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. It was better (...) (24 years ago, 29-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Personally I'm gonna have to go with Chris and Lar on this one... Most of the time, you're probably right. But it doesn't make it always so (At least I don't think so). My problem is two-fold: A. If the atrocity of the law reaches certain (...) (24 years ago, 29-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Yep, I can totally see that. For God's sake, I don't think that one should *always* abide by the laws, especially when reaching such atrocities like your example. Larry has a point too there, when the law just goes too far then I'd rather not (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Hmm.. not necessarily, but most probably. Mostly it's to say that I don't have a problem with you breaking the law, so long as you don't put moral fault on the government for punishing your lack of adherence to it. Basically, should those who (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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Snippy snip (...) Can you elaborate on this? Slavery is morally wrong and it doesn't matter to me what the law says about it. A government that abides it (yes, even the US government of the time) doesn't have consent of the governed in that area, (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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Shiri Dori wrote: <snip> (...) Oops.. you just lost the debate... :-) :-) :-) Frank (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) While I tend to be on the side of "work within the system" over "revolt", I am glad that some people feel so strongly about their cause they are willing to go to jail for it. In fact, I am glad about this even when I don't agree with their (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Yes, I tricked her into it by bringing up the topic and not actually saying the magic word. :-) (actually I think that counts as a loss too. LOL) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Well, difference of opinion on our parts, I think. By my moral theory, slavery is not necessarily morally wrong. Is that to say that I think slavery in the US wasn't wrong? No. In fact, I'm pretty sure it WAS wrong. Basically, my morality (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) At the risk of being accused of jury tampering by making you aware of your rights and duties as a juror(1), check this out: (URL) discusses "jury nullification". This is a unique power that American jurors have... to find a defendent innocent (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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Snip most, hope to come back later... address a tiny fraction. (...) We differ strongly. I suspect this is moral relativism. I reject that... I go even farther than rejection. I think there are moral absolutes and no government, even with the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) I noted that you had expressed this moral theory in another thread but I didn't backtrack far enough to find it. Can you point me to the post? (...) Does it come down to behavior x is only immoral when those doing the behaving think that it (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Ah-- then we shall certainly have differences. My own moral theory arrives at the conclusion that there are no absolutes in morality. (...) And I'd argue that it CAN be. Not necessarily that it's EVER actually BEEN ok, but that the possibility (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) <voice from Island of Misfit Toys> "Nobody wants a Hitler in the .debate!" </voice from Island of Misfit Toys> LFB (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Hmm... actually I'm not sure anymore what parts voice it best... I think I tried to sum it up at the bottomish part of: (URL) a lot of that was expounded upon in the (vastly long) thread that followed... so I don't think it goes into as much (...) (24 years ago, 30-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Go ahead and do so... (...) I am having a lot of trouble with this notion. It smacks of might makes right. <snip> (...) Yes, it so much more convenient to already have "lost", don't you think? ++Lar (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, obviously you won't take too keenly to the theory to begin with, BUT, since you asked :) Let's look at our society. Take theft for example. Suppose there was someone who didn't believe in the right to own physical property. He couldn't (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) <snip> (...) It could be twisted into meaning that, I suppose, but just about anything can be twisted around until it supports a 'might makes right' mindset. It boils down to relative morality. When David talks about someone acting morally (or (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Yep. That is a good summation of both David's position and mine, I think. Now back to might makes right... *isn't* moral relativism a kind of "might makes right"? I think it is (without too much, if any, twisting) and that's one of my issues (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) ? Maybe I'm missing the point here, but I don't see that connection-- I.E. that "might makes right"... What do you mean by "right"? If you mean "moral" then no. If you mean "not immoral" then yes. But then again, 'weak' would make right too... (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) No, I think you've got it backwards. Moral relativism is (essentially) stating that morality is subjective & internal, while 'might makes right' is stating that moral action is anything that can be enforced. I've started to go further about (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Brown writes: Snip. (...) I would not agree with the above definition, but rather offer this one instead: MMR is the belief that there *is* no morality. whatever you have the power to do is OK, with no objective (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Ah, then ok. I'm fine with that. Just so long as we make sure to clarify that the 'right' in MMR isn't a moral right. The only problem being, though, that while theoretically true, it's not the case in reality, only because human moral codes (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Right, I understand that concept. I just don't find it valid. Because I don't accept relative morality. (...) Yes. (...) I don't think that's what I am saying, but since I haven't provided a derivation for universal morality I guess that might (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Ok. I think that 'morality...derived from enforcement' and 'whatever you have the power to do is OK' are equivalent statements, but that's just quibbling. (...) That consequence does follow fairly directly, so I guess that's where it fails for (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Ah, ok. So what you're objecting to is specifically my method of moral judgement, instead proposing that some unspecified (at least at present) yet universal code is a better tool for judging morality, and that you have at least some inkling (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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Snipped a lot of head twisting stuff to just answer two questions, then I HAVE to get back to writing docs... more later, maybe. (...) Yes. (...) I can't accurately answer that hypothetical. It's indeterminate since I don't accept the premise and (...) (24 years ago, 31-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) I guess what I'm stumbling over is trying to figure out why you think/feel that morality has significance beyond a personal level. What is the justification/point/meaning of you judging me (or my morals)? Whether it's a personal standard or an (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) think. :-) (...) Good question. I freely admit I may be digging myself a hole here. And judging morality of individuals, in general, isn't what I want to do. Especially as it relates to victimless crimes, etc. Recall that I've said in the past (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Let's modify it a bit: I come over to your house taking donations for the home for wayward boys. You ask about my morals. Now I say I plan to teach them the ways of Christ and bring them up as devout Christians. How much money do you give? (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Larry listens to RUSH? That's a shock ;-) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) Then we agree about (IMHO) the really important part - judging actions not intent. I highly suspect what we're debating for the rest of it is fluff and semantics. <snip examples> (...) Good examples, and a solid case for the relevance of (...) (24 years ago, 1-Feb-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Essay on Emerson vs. Thoreau; civil disobedience
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(...) You're kidding, right? Read the liner notes on the 2112 album. :-) ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Feb-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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