Subject:
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Re: A Berkeley Study That Portrays Liberalism Positively?!!
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:49:17 GMT
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Viewed:
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1694 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Stangl wrote:
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Honest question - which is more ridiculous?
1 - pro-life and pro-death-penalty
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Okay, Tom, let me take a stab at justifying a position such as this one. A
pro-life stance would hold that a human life above all is sacred. So, the
ultimate crime would be the taking of an innocent life. Therefore, the
ultimate punishment (execution) is the consequence for the ultimate crime.
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All that “ultimate punishment” talk is, alas, straight from the George W. Bush
buzzword lexicon. In typical Dubya fashion, it enables him to sound tough
without actually taking a definitive stand. Since I know you to be a person of
conviction (though I don’t always share them!), I’d urge you to select a
terminology more consistent with the strength of your opinion.
Of course, the problems also arise when we try to pin down exactly what
“innocent life,” “ultimate crime,” and “ultimate punishment” really mean, at
which point we generally get to hopelessly subjective benchmark-definitions.
What’s the ultimate crime? Murder? Pedophilia? Rape? Bankrupting a nation?
Decimating a wetland? Who’s to say? Is it just a matter of consensus? That
doesn’t sound very “ultimate” to me.
AFAIC, life imprisonment with no parole and no access to other people would be a
much more severe punishment than execution, and it has the added benefit of
correctability if an error is discovered. To someone else, the “ultimate
punishment” might be slow, excruciating torture carried out over an
uninterrupted period of years. Someone else might consider the “ultimate
punishment” to be eternal damnation, which I grant is a bit out of our
jurisdiction. So who’s correct?
Even “innocent life” is too nebulous to be helpful. Is a newborn person
“innocent life?” What about a town full of civilians who happen to live under a
brutal dictator? What about a guy who commits murder? Is he “innocent life?”
If he’s not, does that mean that anyone can kill him with no further
justification?
These may seem like petty, lawyerly questions, but I think that they get to the
heart of the problem. Yet they don’t even cover the really sticky problems,
such as why the rights of an “innocent” fetus are given greater priority than
the rights of an “innocent” woman.
Beyond all that, why shold one person’s definition of “ultimate” anything be
endorsed in preference to any other’s? If it’s a simple matter of majority
opinion, then can we simply vote to execute someone for voting Republican or for
lacking a foreskin.
Whenever someone claims to be certain of any “ultimate” truth, I immediately get
suspicious. And when the person who claims certainty also claims authority to
act above the law, then I cry foul.
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2 - pro-choice and anti-death-penalty
I don’t know, but I see far too many conservatives that fit #1, which
makes little sense. And of course I see a decent amount of liberals
that fit #2.
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I agree that #2 makes no sense whatsoever.
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Now, now.
It makes clear sense if you’re able to distinguish between a pre-viability fetus
and a fully-grown human being—a distinction that you yourself make below.
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I do not go so far as to equate a 1 week fetus to an adult human being, but I
draw the line pretty early, though, when the heart begins beating, which is
around 3 weeks. I don’t have a problem with the so-called “day-after pill”.
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I’ve got to be honest and say that I was stunned to read this, because it
was almost a direct contradiction of what I thought to be your opinion. I am
gratified to see that your view is substantially more moderate than I’d
realized!
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I have serious problems with late term abortions.
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So does pretty much everyone. I don’t think I’ve ever heard from a person who
applauded them as a great option, in fact.
Here’s something to consider, as put by a good friend of mine: no one is more
strongly anti-abortion than the woman who just had to have one.
Dave!
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