Subject:
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Re: Separation of Church and State
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:05:14 GMT
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Viewed:
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316 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
> Where I agree about the 'separation of church and state' means that 'official
> school sanctioned religious prayer' is a no-no, people getting together and
> praying to their deity, unofficial like and not school supported at all is
> quite fine.
Absolutely! And if someone tries to prevent those people from praying, I'll
be first in line to defend their right to pray as they choose. The right to
worship is Constitutionally protected, even on school property (provided that
it's not done in any official, school-sanctioned, school-organized, or
school-led format).
> > > If, say, I was a teacher at this school, and I had a card with the 10
> > > commandments on my desk, is that violating C & S?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> And here I disagree--If I'm a teacher, and it's my desk, I should have the
> ability to 'decorate' my desk as I see fit, as long as the decorations fall
> into the lines of decorum and such. Is like if I have a cross on a necklace-
> -neither are officially school sanctioned so the C & S do not apply.
In my view, the teacher is the personification of the school, and therefore
the laws that apply to the school likewise apply to the teacher. Obviously, the
teacher is also a private citizen, but in the capacity of "teacher" in the
public school system, he or she is subject to the laws governing such
institutions. I'd go further to say that crucifixes, even as a part of jewelry,
are inappropriate if worn in plain sight, just as pentagrams, Stars of David, or
the like.
It's much the same as for the office of the President: Dubya the citizen is
certainly free to practice whatever religion he chooses, but President George W.
Bush absolutely must not endorse any religion (even if that religion is simple,
generic monotheism). Every time he (or any President, or member of congress, or
government official) says "God Bless America" while speaking in an official
capacit, he is violating the First Amendment.
Someone might say that such common phrases as "God Bless America" or "In God
We Trust" are nationalistic slogans without religious content, but I disagree.
Besides, even if the phrases are non-religious, then the utterance of such
phrases is a violation of the Second Commandment.
> > > If a child wants to do for her artwork presentation, a pic of Moses hefting
> > > the stone tablets down from the mountain, would that violate the C & S?
> >
> > No, unless the child's artwork presentation was included in some kind of
> > school-sponsored or school-endorsed exhibit (even if that exhibit is on or
> > within school property).
>
> Again I would have to disagree--if the art teacher asks in class for his or
> her students to make a portrait of their favourite hero, or their fav. scene
> from a book, and little Julie paints Jesus, et al, in the boat during the
> storm--the artwork is 'officially' requested by the teacher for the
> 'official' art class, but telling Julie that her artwork can't be shown in
> the hallway like all the other kids in her class, just because of the C & S
> issue is taking the letter of the law over the spirit of the law.
Like I said, my argument on this point isn't that great. Still, I have to
disagree with your example on several grounds. An easy way to consider the
matter is to ask "what if 8-year-old Julie paints Satan standing victorious over
the smoldering corpse of Jesus?" Do you agree that such a representation might
cause a stir? Should her work therefore be omitted from the hallway display
because it might offend certain religious sensibilities?
One could also explain to Julie that the school is a public institution, and
therefore the school can only display (ie, endorse) artwork that conforms to the
requirements of law. The school (and local citizens) probably wouldn't hesitate
to censor her artwork if it were shockingly violent, or if it were a fictional
representation of the Principal committing bestiality. A school is widely
considered to have discretionary power over certain kinds of expression, even
when nebulously defined. Isn't it therefore reasonable to allow the school to
exercise similar discretion in a case that's very clearly defined, such as in an
expression of religion? Obviously, someone could still try to sneak a religious
message into a work, but that's not really the point. The problem occurs when
the school knowingly endorses such a work.
Some might reasonably disagree with my handling of that last paragraph, and
I'm eager to hear other viewpoints. I'd maintain, however, that legal precedent
supports schools' rights to enforce certain standards of behavior, expression,
and display. It's not perfect, but at the moment it allows schools to exercise
control over what sorts of artwork are displayed on school grounds.
Dave!
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Separation of Church and State
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| In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) I was trying to address this very issue, but I snipped it 'cause it wasn't sounding good at all. I was going to say that little Timmy drawing Rambo with a severed head in his hand as his (...) (21 years ago, 10-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Separation of Church and State
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| (...) There is a minor problem here about clubs. My inclination is that clubs should be allowed so long as the school does not use religion to determine if the club is allowed (i.e. a religious club could be disallowed if it proposes some activity (...) (21 years ago, 10-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Separation of Church and State
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| (...) Where I agree about the 'separation of church and state' means that 'official school sanctioned religious prayer' is a no-no, people getting together and praying to their deity, unofficial like and not school supported at all is quite fine. (...) (21 years ago, 10-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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