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(...) Bin Laden was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets. At the time, he probably thought the USA was supporting his ideology, rather than simply persuing its own anti-communist one. USA suport then rapidly disappeared. He was then witness to (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You're gerrymandering the facts, either deliberately or otherwise. The attack on US soil was itself an act or war, and if bin Laden is indeed responsible, he himself declared war on the US long ago. If the US responds to his declaration by (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Declarations of war come from nations, not from individuals. His declaration of war against the US was his own posturing. He does not represent his country, as the actions of the IRA do not represent theirs. (...) And this is exactly my point. (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And the Barbary Pirates did not represent any particular country but the US nevertheless declared war on them and dealt with them, quite effectively. If we should decide to make the symbolic act of declaring war on terrorism, it will be the (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) "SANCTUARY: place of safety for a fugitive". Yes, they are providing sanctuary. My point is that that in itself does not make them a legitimate target. The Afghan government do not need to provide anything material for bin Laden; he has enough (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In fact, it does. State-provided sanctuary for a terrorist, conspirator, and murderer, is de facto identical to committing terrorism, conspiracy, and murder. Is it acceptable to you that bin Laden and his followers commit whatever acts they (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I do not believe that, Dave! (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) and (...) According to whom? (...) In fact it's unlikely bin Laden actually leaves his "protective apron" - he probably delegates any international tasks to others. And how is applying military force to the people of Afghanistan, many of whom (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I would call it self-evident, though I will attempt to construct a syllogism for you. In the meantime, I likewise would ask you for your refutation of my assertion. (...) Do (...) Well, now you're quibbling. Whether he actually leaves the (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) with (...) I realise I've snipped a lot of stuff and I will get back to it later, but I think here lies the fundamental difference in our opinions. The answer is no, I identify no difference between the deliberate murder of innocent civilians (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Then let me clarify the question: Do you identify no difference between 1) Murdering innocent civilians aboard a civilian jet and in civilian buildings and 2) The death of civilians resulting from their proximity to known military targets If (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have not read all of the things said, in all of the hundreds of posts here, so forgive me there... I think though that these people who fear they are about to be attacked will try and evacuate themselves to what they may think could be a (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why? Power units are the concern, not nations. These are new times and governments will become less important as other power structures evolve. I think you're operating in the old paradigm. Chris (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, maybe it's time to correct that. Chris (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Ross, your stance here completely baffles me. You're nitpicking against taking action but you (and Jason) haven't proposed any concrete plan of your own other than (paraphrasing and guessing) "right all the injustice in the world everywhere and the (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) On the contrary, I summarised what I think is appropriate action here (URL) but you (and Jason) haven't proposed any concrete plan of your (...) Does "concrete plan" == "the right response"? (...) On the contrary, I think we've just been shown (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) addressed what to do if the Taliban, even after being presented with clear and credible evidence (assuming it can be developed) that anyone else would accept, thumbs their nose and says you can't have him. So you're nitpicking against taking (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Huh??? Yes, I'm against military action. That doesn't mean I'm against action. (...) Because thinking about it now will reduce the needless deaths which will just mount up the longer we leave it. (...) 1. List all the wars in history. 2. Put a (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So what is your plan then? Ask nicely? What if asking causes Pakistan to topple and the Taliban to launch a war? (...) So you are so sure that you know what to fix that you see debate as "needless"? My, I wish I was that certain. I see debate (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's childish. I could summarise your position as "lets kill lots of people somewhere far away - that'll make everything better", but that would be equally insulting. I certainly don't recommend the US try to march in everywhere to 'right (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jason J. Railton writes: <snip lots of mischaracterisation by Jason and myself> Let's try to see if we can find the common ground here. You and Ross agree with me and others that the terrorists who perpretrated this (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Seems a good summation from my POV. (...) No probs there either. I'd prefer not to discuss directions, as I have fairly limited knowledge of America's foreign policy. But I think it's fair to assume that someone's pretty annoyed with it right (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yup, me too. (...) Yes, this is the difference. The US seems to want military action against known terrorists, even if bin Laden is just a suspect in this one case. I would suggest that the only immediate action that should be taken is to (...) (23 years ago, 18-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) how (...) internal (...) I never said I know what to fix, or that the debate was needless. You said now is not the time for examining policies, I think it is, whether or not other action is taken concurrently. (...) Sure. I just disagree with (...) (23 years ago, 28-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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