 | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | (...) That is not quite what I am saying. I am saying that it "can not be viewed within a moral framework". If we take amoral as meaning this: (URL) view that as being negative. (...) Taking it to its logical extreme is - illogical extreme is not (...) (23 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —David Eaton
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| | | | (...) within any moral framework? Or do you mean to say that we simply don't know if that framework exists or not? If the former, I think your disagreement with Larry is potentially flawed. If the latter, then your agreement with Chris's initial (...) (23 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) You have asked this already. I have answered it already. (...) I think we tend to group socially with those who have morals which match our own. (...) Your own values are your own. We are all individuals. (...) A great deal. (...) Yes (...) It (...) (23 years ago, 9-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —David Eaton
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| | | | (...) Yes, I have asked it already, and yes, you've tried to answer it-- however, I either did not understand your response, or I find you to be in error for ever disagreeing with Larry about the issue. So, either please clarify by answering the (...) (23 years ago, 9-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) I think we should not compare our morals with the lion’s decision making process. (...) i think "judge" is rather strong a word. (...) If they wanted you to - yes. (...) The consequence is that it annoys them. (...) Why do you neet motivation (...) (23 years ago, 9-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —James Brown
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| | | | | (...) That is *exactly* what we are doing when we say the lion is amoral. We are saying that our morals do not apply to it. That's where the breakdown in communication is happening. You appear to be operating with a different definition of "amoral" (...) (23 years ago, 10-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | (...) Uh, no, by the definitions you gave (and my understanding also) amoral does not specifically relate to _our_ (human) morals, but _any_ morals. (...) ROSCO (Never let it be said that *I* let this thread die!) (23 years ago, 10-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | (...) Yes, you're right. My imprecision. What I meant was: "We are saying that morals do not apply to it." Mea culpa, mea culpa. James (23 years ago, 10-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) Have you read my respnse to Dave on this? (...) (23 years ago, 11-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —James Brown
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| | | | | | (...) Which response, to which Dave? Precision is good. Do you agree with my summation below? If not, could you give what *you* think Chris meant, and what *you* think Larry meant? From looking through, it is very obvious that everyone who has (...) (23 years ago, 11-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) Including me I think. (...) (23 years ago, 12-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —David Eaton
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| | | | (...) So. You admit you were wrong to disagree with Larry about his assessment of your position as being that the Lion was amoral? (...) Do you think "judge" is incorrect? Please suggest a better word. What is it that family/friends may do with (...) (23 years ago, 11-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) no. Calling it amoral compares it to us does it not? (...) no. (...) If you mean murder, by anyone's moral code this is wrong. I expect even murders know it to be wrong. (...) What is your point? (...) Yes, but I do not have to stop myself - I (...) (23 years ago, 11-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —David Eaton
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| | | | | (...) Not by my watch. If you were unclear on the issue you probably should've asked Larry what he meant by amoral. Otherwise, you must explain what definition you though Larry was using, explain why it's not what you're saying, AND explain the (...) (23 years ago, 11-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) Well I still think it is. I view moralising as rather sanctimonious. To say an animal is without them is negative - in my opinion. (...) Amoral is negative. (...) Evaluate comes to mind (...) Read Larry's message again. Assess the tone. What (...) (23 years ago, 12-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —David Eaton
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| | | | | | (...) Again, I'm tremendously unclear. Please try and explain in more than 2 sentences. Try and summarize in a couple ways-- that might help. As near as I can tell, you mean one of two things: 1. You mean to say that we cannot tell if animals have (...) (23 years ago, 12-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) I am saying I do not care about the lions morals. Saying a lion has no morals, is like saying it cannot drive a car - it is irrelevant. I view calling a lion “amoral” as negative, as it is saying it has not got what we view as being “good”. (...) (23 years ago, 12-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) By referencing the dietary constraint issue, are you talking about my ethical stance on vegetarianism? You are claiming that there is a difference between protecting lives and dietary restriction, but my dietary restriction does protect lives. (...) (23 years ago, 12-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) No. Not at all. I meant consumption levels. I used to share an office with a guy who has utter contempt for anyone who is more than a pound overweight, gay or a Catholic(1). I was thinking of him when I wrote the text. He lives in the USA (...) (23 years ago, 12-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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