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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all. There have
> been some worth to read discussions (mainly Europeans against Americans) about
> the Guarded Inn and at this point we have the same effects concerning the
> trains. I think Jojo has said nearly all about what makes a set a legend and
> why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
Just reread that thread and the takeaway I got is that most people here in
the US anyway don't have a lot of sympathy for what apparently was the
majority view on 1000steine...
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
> want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
> rare sets.
>
> The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
There have been slight changes! 10000 uses different parts molds (new style
minifig torsos, 2 clip saddle, etc.) and the parts count on 10001 is going
to be different by 2! This should make the truly "anorak"y collector quite
happy. Unfortunately the changes are small enough that we have already seen
what appears to be someone trying to pass off a 10000 as an original set.
> And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well designed
> train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the next
> train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than 4560.
Um, are you saying that the 5 new cars just introduced by LD aren't a vast
step forward? They're not as good as what you or I can design (of course,
we're not constrained the same way) but they're way better than 2126.
Sure, more new sets would be better but LD doesn't have that much power yet.
Give it time. LD is changing the way things are done at TLC and what may
seem like a glacial pace to me and Hopfrog and others is really rocket speed
compared to how things get done inside the rest of TLC. I hope it speeds up
more, of course, don't get me wrong.
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In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all.
> > ...why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> > http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
>
> Just reread that thread and the takeaway I got is that most people here in
> the US anyway don't have a lot of sympathy for what apparently was the
> majority view on 1000steine...
Of course there are all opinions to be found at 1000steine, but the majority is
of the opinion, that the Lego® hunting is such a big part of the hobby and they
would not like to miss it. Buying something with your credit card gives you not
the same satisfaction as finding a rare part on a flea market and trading the
next one with some other AFOL. All tose FOTM stories which we all have had are
such an important part of our hobby: I wouldn't like to miss them.
> > The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> > changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new • printings.)
> > The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> > mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> > be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> > Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
>
> There have been slight changes!
You are right, and this is a thing I really appreciate, but as far as I read
it, lots of people are not too glad about these differences (May I call them
the "jealous people": those who would like to get the "like original" sets
cheap, which we idiots have bought at highest prices?).
> 10000 uses different parts molds (new style
> minifig torsos, 2 clip saddle, etc.) and the parts count on 10001 is going
> to be different by 2! This should make the truly "anorak"y collector quite
> happy.
I agree. And the building instruction is different also. Still I would like to
see some "real" changes and I do not see the harm for the "players".
> Unfortunately the changes are small enough that we have already seen
> what appears to be someone trying to pass off a 10000 as an original set.
:-((
> > And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> > Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well • designed
> > train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the • next
> > train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than • 4560.
>
> Um, are you saying that the 5 new cars just introduced by LD aren't a vast
> step forward?
No, I'm not talking about these S@H waggons, but I see black for the future of
TLC trains (the stuff you buy at your local toy store, at least here in
Germany). S@H is great and in general I'm really satisfied, how things
proceeded during the last month.
> Sure, more new sets would be better but LD doesn't have that much power yet.
> Give it time. LD is changing the way things are done at TLC and what may
> seem like a glacial pace to me and Hopfrog and others is really rocket speed
> compared to how things get done inside the rest of TLC. I hope it speeds up
> more, of course, don't get me wrong.
No, of course not. And I know, most readers of lugnet.trains will not agree
with my opinion. Despite of this I felt the need to give you my opinion on the
Lego® Legends.
Leg Godt!
Ben
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In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all. There have
> > been some worth to read discussions (mainly Europeans against Americans) about
> > the Guarded Inn and at this point we have the same effects concerning the
> > trains. I think Jojo has said nearly all about what makes a set a legend and
> > why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> > http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
>
> Just reread that thread and the takeaway I got is that most people here in
> the US anyway don't have a lot of sympathy for what apparently was the
> majority view on 1000steine...
>
> > As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> > collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> > Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> > play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
> > want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
> > rare sets.
> >
> > The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> > changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> > The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> > mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> > be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> > Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
>
> There have been slight changes! 10000 uses different parts molds (new style
> minifig torsos, 2 clip saddle, etc.) and the parts count on 10001 is going
> to be different by 2! This should make the truly "anorak"y collector quite
> happy. Unfortunately the changes are small enough that we have already seen
> what appears to be someone trying to pass off a 10000 as an original set.
I agree. In fact, the smaller the difference the more joy the anoraks will
have. Other collecting fields suffer from re-runs, I do not see why Lego
should be any different. Perhaps the anoraks should start collecting lines
which may never be reproduced? :)
Scott A
>
> > And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> > Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well designed
> > train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the next
> > train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than 4560.
>
> Um, are you saying that the 5 new cars just introduced by LD aren't a vast
> step forward? They're not as good as what you or I can design (of course,
> we're not constrained the same way) but they're way better than 2126.
>
> Sure, more new sets would be better but LD doesn't have that much power yet.
> Give it time. LD is changing the way things are done at TLC and what may
> seem like a glacial pace to me and Hopfrog and others is really rocket speed
> compared to how things get done inside the rest of TLC. I hope it speeds up
> more, of course, don't get me wrong.
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One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
I think it will also be true that for every AFOL who never got a Metroliner
before now, there will be a hundred kids who get one.
Lego Direct is a tiny organization within Lego that wants to prove that
trains sell. They don't get to spend a lot of money developing products.
After the current re-releases do well, then LD will be in a position to ask
Denmark for more. The Sopwith Camel already existed, LD just brought it to
market. If a great new train set already exists on a designer's shelf,
perhaps it will be the next Sopwith Camel. I think that is more probable
than Lego putting a great train set in the retail line.
-Erik
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In lugnet.trains, Erik Olson writes:
> One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
> Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
> many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
> roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
Some people think that LUGNET is the center of the LEGO universe. I'd
compare us to a section of seats at a sporting event, with a couple of
hecklers making the most noise. There might be 500+ seats, but only two
people trying to get the most attention. Sure, we LUGNET AFOLs make a lot
of noise, but we're really a small part of the LEGO market!
>
> I think it will also be true that for every AFOL who never got a Metroliner
> before now, there will be a hundred kids who get one.
Speaking as a real 'train head', this *has* to be a good thing. :-)
JohnG, GMLTC
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> Of course there are all opinions to be found at 1000steine, but the majority
> is of the opinion, that the Lego® hunting is such a big part of the hobby and
> they would not like to miss it. Buying something with your credit card gives
> you not the same satisfaction as finding a rare part on a flea market and
> trading the next one with some other AFOL. All tose FOTM stories which we all
> have had are such an important part of our hobby: I wouldn't like to miss
> them.
I don't like flea markets, and I don't like used stuff if I can avoid it. I
have no sympathy with the view that the fun is in the "shopping" for the
elements or sets -- I hate shopping! My preference would be for TLC NOT to
rerelease sets but just certain elements -- but there is probably a profit
motive in just rereleasing the sets instead. So be it. I support the
rerelease of sets with desirable elements. I have no sympathy for the
collector's of lego who have paid premium prices for stuff -- I have done it
too, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happier by far to have ready access
to the elements I was seeking because they have rereleased the set
containing those elements!
[Man, I really need to finish that grading Lego thing so that you can all
see why collecting Lego at premium prices is REALLY stupid in many cases.
But that will have to wait for pictures!]
> You are right, and this is a thing I really appreciate, but as far as I read
> it, lots of people are not too glad about these differences (May I call them
> the "jealous people": those who would like to get the "like original" sets
> cheap, which we idiots have bought at highest prices?).
I don't care about the "like original" sets, just the "like original" parts!
There is a quality control issue where the walls are manufactured
differently and where the printing of the more modern elements is done in an
increasingly shoddy manner (the flag appears to have suffered of bad
printing for 10000). I have had printing troubles with sets beyond 10000,
and that is THE issue also!
TLC is not going to win any points with me if their quality control starts
heading any further south -- that makes Mega Bloks look increasingly better
to me (as it does all the time because of improvements on their side of this
equation!). Frankly, things need to improve and ASAP! Quality control has
really started to slip and I presume its not a good thing in anyone's view...
-- Hop-Frog
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In lugnet.trains, John Gerlach writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Erik Olson writes:
> > One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
> > Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
> > many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
> > roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
That proves that more sales are generated by the catalog than by people reading
lugnet. It *doesn't* say anything about the people making those purchases.
Who knows whether it's parents, kids or AFOLs placing the orders?
> Some people think that LUGNET is the center of the LEGO universe. I'd
> compare us to a section of seats at a sporting event, with a couple of
> hecklers making the most noise. There might be 500+ seats, but only two
> people trying to get the most attention. Sure, we LUGNET AFOLs make a lot
> of noise, but we're really a small part of the LEGO market!
Exactly. The stadium is everyone buying lego, the section is AFOLs, the two
people are LUGNET.
I've said it before: LUGNET represents a relatively small portion of the AFOL
market. *Serious* LEGO maniacs wouldn't waste time on the computer, when they
could be playing with their bricks.
> > I think it will also be true that for every AFOL who never got a Metroliner
> > before now, there will be a hundred kids who get one.
> Speaking as a real 'train head', this *has* to be a good thing. :-)
I totally agree with you there.
Steve
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In lugnet.trains, Steve Bliss writes:
> In lugnet.trains, John Gerlach writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Erik Olson writes:
> > > One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
> > > Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
> > > many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
> > > roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
>
> That proves that more sales are generated by the catalog than by people reading
> lugnet. It *doesn't* say anything about the people making those purchases.
> Who knows whether it's parents, kids or AFOLs placing the orders?
Good point. Brad only talked about how it was kids "directing" their parents
to buy, shortly after the context of juniorized sets.
I don't have a problem adjusting to being in a minority, because we've been
coddled lately. LUGNET however has allowed the illusion that we really are
all that important and more.
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Erik Olson wrote:
>
> In lugnet.trains, Steve Bliss writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, John Gerlach writes:
> > > In lugnet.trains, Erik Olson writes:
> > > > One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
> > > > Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
> > > > many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
> > > > roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
> >
> > That proves that more sales are generated by the catalog than by people reading
> > lugnet. It *doesn't* say anything about the people making those purchases.
> > Who knows whether it's parents, kids or AFOLs placing the orders?
>
> Good point. Brad only talked about how it was kids "directing" their parents
> to buy, shortly after the context of juniorized sets.
However Brad made it quite clear: "on 7 of 8 calls we listened to, you
can hear the kid in the background directing the parent". Those sales
are FOR kids, no matter whose money is being spent. While I question the
7 of 8 calls (Mike pointed out that he usually orders for his son after
bedtime, I also wonder about gift purchases etc. - but then perhaps it
is just evidence that kids are spending their OWN money [with their
parent's help]).
> I don't have a problem adjusting to being in a minority, because we've been
> coddled lately. LUGNET however has allowed the illusion that we really are
> all that important and more.
Brad made it clear that while we are a minor part of their market, we
ARE important to them. We represent a very dedicated fan base which will
promote the brand, we happily provide information (another one Brad
mentioned - they DID use the "parts survey" as an input to their
decision making and it sounded like he was somewhat dissapointed it had
fallen by the wayside).
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com (business only please)
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
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Frank Filz wrote:
> Erik Olson wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > I don't have a problem adjusting to being in a minority, because we've been
> > coddled lately. LUGNET however has allowed the illusion that we really are
> > all that important and more.
>
> Brad made it clear that while we are a minor part of their market, we
> ARE important to them. We represent a very dedicated fan base which will
> promote the brand, we happily provide information (another one Brad
> mentioned - they DID use the "parts survey" as an input to their
> decision making and it sounded like he was somewhat dissapointed it had
> fallen by the wayside).
I don't know about all of you, but there are at least 6 non-AFOL families
who regularly ask me for Lego advice (including help on buying out-of-production
sets). I have told them exactly what I think about Lego Racers, Juniorization,
Bionicle, and other issues commonly discussed on Lugnet. If I am typical, then
TLC marketing is probably underestimating our influence by a substantial factor.
/Eric McCarthy/
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Eric McCarthy wrote:
>
> Frank Filz wrote:
>
> > Erik Olson wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I don't have a problem adjusting to being in a minority, because we've been
> > > coddled lately. LUGNET however has allowed the illusion that we really are
> > > all that important and more.
> >
> > Brad made it clear that while we are a minor part of their market, we
> > ARE important to them. We represent a very dedicated fan base which will
> > promote the brand, we happily provide information (another one Brad
> > mentioned - they DID use the "parts survey" as an input to their
> > decision making and it sounded like he was somewhat dissapointed it had
> > fallen by the wayside).
>
>
> I don't know about all of you, but there are at least 6 non-AFOL families
> who regularly ask me for Lego advice (including help on buying out-of-production
> sets). I have told them exactly what I think about Lego Racers, Juniorization,
> Bionicle, and other issues commonly discussed on Lugnet. If I am typical, then
> TLC marketing is probably underestimating our influence by a substantial factor.
I think they're underestimating it less than you think. Brad touched on
this type of impact. However, I think their feeling is their whole Mania
Club/S@H consituency fits this bill.
Brad also made it clear that while he completely understood that we
don't buy juniorization or racers (I bet you'd be surprised by the
number of AFOLs buying Bionicle), they are also not targetted at our
market segment. They are targetted at today's kids who have been
conditioned to more instant gratification and action oriented play. They
also hope and understand that if they expose a kid to some building
before the action oriented play, that perhaps some of those kids will
realize the building part is play also... Some of the new lines
(Throwbots, Bionicle, and Racers) are also targetting the kids
"collectible" market. Kids have always collected (in fact, people have
probably always collected - ever thought about what's REALLY behind a
zoo or library - and those are ancient concepts).
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com (business only please)
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
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