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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, John Robert-Blaze Kanehl writes:
> > In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> > > Well, you have definitely inspired me - I already have my pirate crew
> > > assembled, and I'm going to start working on my junk today. I have some
> > > questions about Japanese naval history (for you or anybody else who knows):
> > > -did junks ever carry cannon?
> >
> > To the best of my knowledge, junks (later called san-pans) were
> > Chinese/Korean in origin.
>
> I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
> and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
> during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
> torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
> else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
> I digress, as usual).
Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines
the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's
History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in
there about subs.
> The usual point made is that sampans
> are Japanese, junks are Chinese. I'm not fully sure where
> the Korean equivalents fall.
OK, so junks are Chinese and sampans are Japanese: is the name the only
difference, or are they different kinds of ships?
> > I was under the impression that a majority of Japanese ships were coastal
> > vessels, small fishing boats or galleys, designed for short journeys and
> > capable of navigating close to shore. I understood that due to cultural
> > viewws and Imperial decrees, large shps were not constructed for quite some
> > time.
>
> That's China you're talking about. The Treasure Fleet of
> Cheng He that made many voyages to south Asia and East Africa
> was, in fact, the largest fleet assembled during the age of
> sail. Not until the Jubilee reviews of Victorian Britain
> did larger fleets appear.
>
> For some reason, the Emperor decided that any ship over two
> masts (IIRC) was no longer allowed--records were destroyed,
> skills lost, and the like. I've seen drawings of some of
> these ships from the eunuch's treasure fleet--they were
> friggin' *enormous*, six-masted things roughly four times
> the size of Columbus's whole expedition.
I think I read somewhere that he was also a Muslim and that didn't go over too
well.
> A citation for those interested: _When China Ruled the Seas:
> The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1400-1433_ by Louise
> Levathes (London: Simon & Shuster, 1994) is *the* reference
> for the mighty Ming navy, and a splendid piece of scholarship
> to boot. Take that, Flash Gordon!
I put a hold on that. Thanks, Lindsay.
> > Regarding cannons... A long time ago I read about pirates that had mounted
> > small cannons on junks and were harassing villages and ports in China BUT,
> > this was during World War II!
>
> During the Opium War(s--really more of a constant struggle) of
> the 1840s, Chinese junks with cannon were employed. Not
> too shockingly, China lost that conflict rather handily. The
> cannon were of poor quality and usually quite aged--the same
> issue the Spanish had about sixty years later when facing a
> *modern* imperialist power.
>
> But the Chinese did use rockets and cannon militarily from
> at least the 15th century AD, but in all likelihood far
> longer. It wasn't refined into broadsides and grapeshot,
> but the idea that China had gunpowder and 'didn't know what
> to do with it' is nothing more than an amazingly persistent
> (imperial) myth.
Ooh, rockets! Would they have been on ships or only on land? I know the British
used rockets from ships at some point.
> During WWII, the Japanese were impressing sampans into service
> as ASW craft, if the USN is to be believed on the matter--if
> you put a 6-pdr and some ashcans on a junk you might get lucky.
> You might also blow yourself out of the water, but hey, it's
> worth it...?
>
> Note to self: Model Bushnell's _Turtle_ for the Pirate Game...
>
> > > -would sailors/pirates have been armed with muskets, or only swords and • such?
> >
> > Well, depends on whether you want to do a historical diorama or play the
> > Pirate Game = )
> >
> > I would imagine it depends on the time period. Generally, Pirates have
> > access to the same or sometimes better armaments than average people by
> > virtue of the fact that they generally, plunder and steal v. invent.
>
> I agree, depends on the period. Japanese had small arms from
> their first contact with the Dutch and Portuguese, though it
> was quite regulated. It did however cause havoc and (IIRC)
> those who ventured out onto the sea would have gained these
> weapons through trade and plunder. The only catch is that not
> too many small arms were produced 'at home'--it was restricted
> and only for those who could afford them socially and fiscally.
> But pirates were pretty good at improvisation, at least the
> idealised sort we're trying to emulate.
>
> > At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be • employed.
>
> Composite bows definitely--China and Japan learnt that from
> the Mongols in much the same way that Europe did, with the
> major difference that the Mongols *became* China's ruling
> class...but Japan and Korea, definitely.
I'll probably go with muskets, bows, and swords.
> > > -what would they have worn - helmets, bare-headed, or the pirate 'do-rags'?
> >
> > I believe pirates would be utilitarian in their approach to armaments and
> > garb. While armor and helmets maybe handy on the grassy-plain battlefield,
> > they would be a liability at sea, on a small vessel. It is proably much
> > easier to crawl around a ship and do sailory things in clothing that is as
> > light as possible. As I understand it, pirate was generally not an accepted
> > vocational choice. Most of the individuals invloved were most likely
> > criminals, slaves, theives, etc. with limited education and no assets. The
> > strength of most piratical types was their ability to hit quickly, quietly
> > and escape; anything that encumbered was probably useless.
>
> I'd bet they'd wear sock-hats if pirates. What you're saying
> above, Europe only learnt after Lepanto (1571) and the Armada
> (you don't need *that* year, do you?). IIRC most sailors also
> shaved their heads very close or bald--no sense anyone having
> something to grab onto.
I guess I'm going to have to acquire a bunch of black do-rags.
> It's also that pirates are living in the same clothing day in,
> day out, so they wash and wear it, swim in it, and sweat in
> it. Considering that the real wealth was not in the Yellow
> Sea or even the Sea of Japan, but further south towards the
> Philippines and what is today Indonesia, it was probably also
> quite hot most of the time.
>
> Incidentally, buccaneer crews were often a pastiche. A pirate
> who started out 'Japanese' would quickly pick up new crew in
> the act of piracy or at ports-of-call, and lose original crew
> in battle or (more often) to disease, so after a couple of years
> it might be more a Moluccan or Madurese crew than a Japanese
> one. In the Atlantic, for example, crews were almost equal
> parts African, European, and 'mixed' Caribbean/North American,
> with no designated 'identity' beyond that of the captain.
>
> > As an interesting aside...
> > There was an EXCELLENT PBS special awhile back documenting a diving
> > expedition near Bahrain showig a sunken junk. Long before the Europeans
> > were venturing beyond their coastlines, China hadd the largest fleet in the
> > world, thousands of junks. These Chines merchant fleets travelled from Asia
> > to India, to Arabia, to Africa and back. There were "treasure" junks
> > supposedly larger than most European ships built during the age of sale.
> > Some Junks were 300 feet long with 5-7 masts. Very impressive haulig
> > capacity and design.
>
> Yeah. See above for the book cite--again, well worth a weekend
> of sporadic reading. I managed to sneak it onto my exam reading
> list for global history...;)
A professor who assigns actual books! Where do you teach? I used to be a
history major as well as PoliSci, but I had to drop it because the classes and
professors were a joke. One of my professors whom I had to continually correct
finally told me that 'dates aren't that important'.
Thank you very much for the info, everybody!
-Marc
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: pirate + ninja
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| (...) "Blind Man's Bluff" is a great book about the history of submarine warfare. (...) Japanese pirates during the period that the Ninja sets apply often picked up Koreans from ports they raided as part of the crew. Chris (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle.ninja, lugnet.pirates)
| | | Re: pirate + ninja
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| (...) The most entertaining book I read about US subs in the Pacific was the venerable 'Pig Boats,' a popular-issue book that was as of 1992 still available in paperback. As for academic books, Morison like most was still enamoured with the (...) (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle.ninja, lugnet.pirates)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: pirate + ninja
|
| (...) You'll need some black hulls! (...) I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending torpedoes on (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle.ninja, lugnet.pirates)
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