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Has anyone considered that pirate minifigs work well as Portugese
traders and missionaries within the Ninja world? I did a MoC based on
this which I'll post pics of one day. Maybe I'll get around to doing
some Nagasaki MoCs since it was one of the few places where Nambanjin
(southern barbarians) were permitted to live.
Chris Barker
chris@superfami.com
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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> Has anyone considered that pirate minifigs work well as Portugese
> traders and missionaries within the Ninja world? I did a MoC based on
> this which I'll post pics of one day. Maybe I'll get around to doing
> some Nagasaki MoCs since it was one of the few places where Nambanjin
> (southern barbarians) were permitted to live.
>
> Chris Barker
> chris@superfami.com
Actually, I was just thinking about that whole concept. There is a big Pirate
Game get-together that is supposed to be happening in June, and I was thinking
about the possibility of building an island inhabited by Ninja types. I would
love to see your pictures! Did you build any ships in your MOC? I have really
wanted to do a junk but haven't got around to it yet.
I'm sending this over to .pirates as well to see if there is any interest over
there. If anybody has built anything in this area, I would love to see it.
Thanks for bringing up this topic, Chris, and I look forward to seeing
your pics!
-Marc
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"Marc Nelson Jr." wrote:
>
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> > Has anyone considered that pirate minifigs work well as Portugese
> > traders and missionaries within the Ninja world? I did a MoC based on
> > this which I'll post pics of one day. Maybe I'll get around to doing
> > some Nagasaki MoCs since it was one of the few places where Nambanjin
> > (southern barbarians) were permitted to live.
> >
> > Chris Barker
> > chris@superfami.com
>
> Actually, I was just thinking about that whole concept. There is a big Pirate
> Game get-together that is supposed to be happening in June, and I was thinking
> about the possibility of building an island inhabited by Ninja types. I would
> love to see your pictures! Did you build any ships in your MOC? I have really
> wanted to do a junk but haven't got around to it yet.
Hmm, a Ninja island for the Pirate Game... I'll have to think about how
that might work into the game...
Of course there's lots of opportunity for piracy and whatnot in the
oriental world. In fact, that corner of the world is one area where
piracy is still pretty common... I'd love to see some good Chinese junk
MOCs.
Frank
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Frank Filz wrote:
>
> "Marc Nelson Jr." wrote:
> >
> > In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> > > Has anyone considered that pirate minifigs work well as Portugese
> > > traders and missionaries within the Ninja world? I did a MoC based on
> > > this which I'll post pics of one day. Maybe I'll get around to doing
> > > some Nagasaki MoCs since it was one of the few places where Nambanjin
> > > (southern barbarians) were permitted to live.
> > >
> > > Chris Barker
> > > chris@superfami.com
> >
> > Actually, I was just thinking about that whole concept. There is a big Pirate
> > Game get-together that is supposed to be happening in June, and I was thinking
> > about the possibility of building an island inhabited by Ninja types. I would
> > love to see your pictures! Did you build any ships in your MOC? I have really
> > wanted to do a junk but haven't got around to it yet.
>
> Hmm, a Ninja island for the Pirate Game... I'll have to think about how
> that might work into the game...
>
> Of course there's lots of opportunity for piracy and whatnot in the
> oriental world. In fact, that corner of the world is one area where
> piracy is still pretty common... I'd love to see some good Chinese junk
> MOCs.
>
> Frank
Well, there were a lot of Japanese pirates. They used to make life very
unpleasant for the Koreans and Chinese. The Koreans called em "Wako".
Chris Barker
chris@superfami.com
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"Marc Nelson Jr." wrote:
>
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> > Has anyone considered that pirate minifigs work well as Portugese
> > traders and missionaries within the Ninja world? I did a MoC based on
> > this which I'll post pics of one day. Maybe I'll get around to doing
> > some Nagasaki MoCs since it was one of the few places where Nambanjin
> > (southern barbarians) were permitted to live.
> >
> > Chris Barker
> > chris@superfami.com
>
> Actually, I was just thinking about that whole concept. There is a big Pirate
> Game get-together that is supposed to be happening in June, and I was thinking
> about the possibility of building an island inhabited by Ninja types. I would
> love to see your pictures! Did you build any ships in your MOC? I have really
> wanted to do a junk but haven't got around to it yet.
No pirate ships. I don't have any and they are WAY too expensive in
Japan. Two pics from that MoC are here
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=3548
I plan to rebuild and overhaul this idea later since very few of the
photos came out well.
Chris
>
> I'm sending this over to .pirates as well to see if there is any interest over
> there. If anybody has built anything in this area, I would love to see it.
> Thanks for bringing up this topic, Chris, and I look forward to seeing
> your pics!
>
> -Marc
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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> No pirate ships. I don't have any and they are WAY too expensive in
> Japan. Two pics from that MoC are here
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=3548
> I plan to rebuild and overhaul this idea later since very few of the
> photos came out well.
>
> Chris
That's a great scene! You can build some neat small ships out of non-pirate
pieces - then you could do a Commodore Perry scene.
Well, you have definitely inspired me - I already have my pirate crew
assembled, and I'm going to start working on my junk today. I have some
questions about Japanese naval history (for you or anybody else who knows):
-did junks ever carry cannon?
-would sailors/pirates have been armed with muskets, or only swords and such?
-what would they have worn - helmets, bare-headed, or the pirate 'do-rags'?
Thanks for the inspiration and for sharing your pics.
-Marc
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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
>
> > No pirate ships. I don't have any and they are WAY too expensive in
> > Japan. Two pics from that MoC are here
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=3548
> > I plan to rebuild and overhaul this idea later since very few of the
> > photos came out well.
> >
> > Chris
>
> That's a great scene! You can build some neat small ships out of non-pirate
> pieces - then you could do a Commodore Perry scene.
>
> Well, you have definitely inspired me - I already have my pirate crew
> assembled, and I'm going to start working on my junk today. I have some
> questions about Japanese naval history (for you or anybody else who knows):
> -did junks ever carry cannon?
To the best of my knowledge, junks (later called san-pans) were
Chinese/Korean in origin.
I was under the impression that a majority of Japanese ships were coastal
vessels, small fishing boats or galleys, designed for short journeys and
capable of navigating close to shore. I understood that due to cultural
viewws and Imperial decrees, large shps were not constructed for quite some
time.
Regarding cannons... A long time ago I read about pirates that had mounted
small cannons on junks and were harassing villages and ports in China BUT,
this was during World War II!
Lindsay Frederick Braun is probably more conversant about naval history than
anyone else I can suggest. As a matter of fact, he suggested the only good
links I had for my junk project last year.
> -would sailors/pirates have been armed with muskets, or only swords and such?
Well, depends on whether you want to do a historical diorama or play the
Pirate Game = )
I would imagine it depends on the time period. Generally, Pirates have
access to the same or sometimes better armaments than average people by
virtue of the fact that they generally, plunder and steal v. invent.
At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be employed.
> -what would they have worn - helmets, bare-headed, or the pirate 'do-rags'?
I believe pirates would be utilitarian in their approach to armaments and
garb. While armor and helmets maybe handy on the grassy-plain battlefield,
they would be a liability at sea, on a small vessel. It is proably much
easier to crawl around a ship and do sailory things in clothing that is as
light as possible. As I understand it, pirate was generally not an accepted
vocational choice. Most of the individuals invloved were most likely
criminals, slaves, theives, etc. with limited education and no assets. The
strength of most piratical types was their ability to hit quickly, quietly
and escape; anything that encumbered was probably useless.
The above is mostly conjecture and faint memories from college courses a
long time ago...
John
As an interesting aside...
There was an EXCELLENT PBS special awhile back documenting a diving
expedition near Bahrain showig a sunken junk. Long before the Europeans
were venturing beyond their coastlines, China hadd the largest fleet in the
world, thousands of junks. These Chines merchant fleets travelled from Asia
to India, to Arabia, to Africa and back. There were "treasure" junks
supposedly larger than most European ships built during the age of sale.
Some Junks were 300 feet long with 5-7 masts. Very impressive haulig
capacity and design.
> Thanks for the inspiration and for sharing your pics.
>
> -Marc
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|
In lugnet.castle.ninja, John Robert-Blaze Kanehl writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> > In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> >
> > > No pirate ships. I don't have any and they are WAY too expensive in
> > > Japan. Two pics from that MoC are here
> > > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=3548
> > > I plan to rebuild and overhaul this idea later since very few of the
> > > photos came out well.
> > >
> > > Chris
> >
> > That's a great scene! You can build some neat small ships out of non-pirate
> > pieces - then you could do a Commodore Perry scene.
You'll need some black hulls!
> > Well, you have definitely inspired me - I already have my pirate crew
> > assembled, and I'm going to start working on my junk today. I have some
> > questions about Japanese naval history (for you or anybody else who knows):
> > -did junks ever carry cannon?
>
> To the best of my knowledge, junks (later called san-pans) were
> Chinese/Korean in origin.
I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
I digress, as usual). The usual point made is that sampans
are Japanese, junks are Chinese. I'm not fully sure where
the Korean equivalents fall.
> I was under the impression that a majority of Japanese ships were coastal
> vessels, small fishing boats or galleys, designed for short journeys and
> capable of navigating close to shore. I understood that due to cultural
> viewws and Imperial decrees, large shps were not constructed for quite some
> time.
That's China you're talking about. The Treasure Fleet of
Cheng He that made many voyages to south Asia and East Africa
was, in fact, the largest fleet assembled during the age of
sail. Not until the Jubilee reviews of Victorian Britain
did larger fleets appear.
For some reason, the Emperor decided that any ship over two
masts (IIRC) was no longer allowed--records were destroyed,
skills lost, and the like. I've seen drawings of some of
these ships from the eunuch's treasure fleet--they were
friggin' *enormous*, six-masted things roughly four times
the size of Columbus's whole expedition.
A citation for those interested: _When China Ruled the Seas:
The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1400-1433_ by Louise
Levathes (London: Simon & Shuster, 1994) is *the* reference
for the mighty Ming navy, and a splendid piece of scholarship
to boot. Take that, Flash Gordon!
> Regarding cannons... A long time ago I read about pirates that had mounted
> small cannons on junks and were harassing villages and ports in China BUT,
> this was during World War II!
During the Opium War(s--really more of a constant struggle) of
the 1840s, Chinese junks with cannon were employed. Not
too shockingly, China lost that conflict rather handily. The
cannon were of poor quality and usually quite aged--the same
issue the Spanish had about sixty years later when facing a
*modern* imperialist power.
But the Chinese did use rockets and cannon militarily from
at least the 15th century AD, but in all likelihood far
longer. It wasn't refined into broadsides and grapeshot,
but the idea that China had gunpowder and 'didn't know what
to do with it' is nothing more than an amazingly persistent
(imperial) myth.
During WWII, the Japanese were impressing sampans into service
as ASW craft, if the USN is to be believed on the matter--if
you put a 6-pdr and some ashcans on a junk you might get lucky.
You might also blow yourself out of the water, but hey, it's
worth it...?
Note to self: Model Bushnell's _Turtle_ for the Pirate Game...
> > -would sailors/pirates have been armed with muskets, or only swords and such?
>
> Well, depends on whether you want to do a historical diorama or play the
> Pirate Game = )
>
> I would imagine it depends on the time period. Generally, Pirates have
> access to the same or sometimes better armaments than average people by
> virtue of the fact that they generally, plunder and steal v. invent.
I agree, depends on the period. Japanese had small arms from
their first contact with the Dutch and Portuguese, though it
was quite regulated. It did however cause havoc and (IIRC)
those who ventured out onto the sea would have gained these
weapons through trade and plunder. The only catch is that not
too many small arms were produced 'at home'--it was restricted
and only for those who could afford them socially and fiscally.
But pirates were pretty good at improvisation, at least the
idealised sort we're trying to emulate.
> At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be employed.
Composite bows definitely--China and Japan learnt that from
the Mongols in much the same way that Europe did, with the
major difference that the Mongols *became* China's ruling
class...but Japan and Korea, definitely.
> > -what would they have worn - helmets, bare-headed, or the pirate 'do-rags'?
>
> I believe pirates would be utilitarian in their approach to armaments and
> garb. While armor and helmets maybe handy on the grassy-plain battlefield,
> they would be a liability at sea, on a small vessel. It is proably much
> easier to crawl around a ship and do sailory things in clothing that is as
> light as possible. As I understand it, pirate was generally not an accepted
> vocational choice. Most of the individuals invloved were most likely
> criminals, slaves, theives, etc. with limited education and no assets. The
> strength of most piratical types was their ability to hit quickly, quietly
> and escape; anything that encumbered was probably useless.
I'd bet they'd wear sock-hats if pirates. What you're saying
above, Europe only learnt after Lepanto (1571) and the Armada
(you don't need *that* year, do you?). IIRC most sailors also
shaved their heads very close or bald--no sense anyone having
something to grab onto.
It's also that pirates are living in the same clothing day in,
day out, so they wash and wear it, swim in it, and sweat in
it. Considering that the real wealth was not in the Yellow
Sea or even the Sea of Japan, but further south towards the
Philippines and what is today Indonesia, it was probably also
quite hot most of the time.
Incidentally, buccaneer crews were often a pastiche. A pirate
who started out 'Japanese' would quickly pick up new crew in
the act of piracy or at ports-of-call, and lose original crew
in battle or (more often) to disease, so after a couple of years
it might be more a Moluccan or Madurese crew than a Japanese
one. In the Atlantic, for example, crews were almost equal
parts African, European, and 'mixed' Caribbean/North American,
with no designated 'identity' beyond that of the captain.
> As an interesting aside...
> There was an EXCELLENT PBS special awhile back documenting a diving
> expedition near Bahrain showig a sunken junk. Long before the Europeans
> were venturing beyond their coastlines, China hadd the largest fleet in the
> world, thousands of junks. These Chines merchant fleets travelled from Asia
> to India, to Arabia, to Africa and back. There were "treasure" junks
> supposedly larger than most European ships built during the age of sale.
> Some Junks were 300 feet long with 5-7 masts. Very impressive haulig
> capacity and design.
Yeah. See above for the book cite--again, well worth a weekend
of sporadic reading. I managed to sneak it onto my exam reading
list for global history...;)
best
Lindsay
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|
In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, John Robert-Blaze Kanehl writes:
> > In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> > > Well, you have definitely inspired me - I already have my pirate crew
> > > assembled, and I'm going to start working on my junk today. I have some
> > > questions about Japanese naval history (for you or anybody else who knows):
> > > -did junks ever carry cannon?
> >
> > To the best of my knowledge, junks (later called san-pans) were
> > Chinese/Korean in origin.
>
> I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
> and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
> during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
> torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
> else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
> I digress, as usual).
Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines
the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's
History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in
there about subs.
> The usual point made is that sampans
> are Japanese, junks are Chinese. I'm not fully sure where
> the Korean equivalents fall.
OK, so junks are Chinese and sampans are Japanese: is the name the only
difference, or are they different kinds of ships?
> > I was under the impression that a majority of Japanese ships were coastal
> > vessels, small fishing boats or galleys, designed for short journeys and
> > capable of navigating close to shore. I understood that due to cultural
> > viewws and Imperial decrees, large shps were not constructed for quite some
> > time.
>
> That's China you're talking about. The Treasure Fleet of
> Cheng He that made many voyages to south Asia and East Africa
> was, in fact, the largest fleet assembled during the age of
> sail. Not until the Jubilee reviews of Victorian Britain
> did larger fleets appear.
>
> For some reason, the Emperor decided that any ship over two
> masts (IIRC) was no longer allowed--records were destroyed,
> skills lost, and the like. I've seen drawings of some of
> these ships from the eunuch's treasure fleet--they were
> friggin' *enormous*, six-masted things roughly four times
> the size of Columbus's whole expedition.
I think I read somewhere that he was also a Muslim and that didn't go over too
well.
> A citation for those interested: _When China Ruled the Seas:
> The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1400-1433_ by Louise
> Levathes (London: Simon & Shuster, 1994) is *the* reference
> for the mighty Ming navy, and a splendid piece of scholarship
> to boot. Take that, Flash Gordon!
I put a hold on that. Thanks, Lindsay.
> > Regarding cannons... A long time ago I read about pirates that had mounted
> > small cannons on junks and were harassing villages and ports in China BUT,
> > this was during World War II!
>
> During the Opium War(s--really more of a constant struggle) of
> the 1840s, Chinese junks with cannon were employed. Not
> too shockingly, China lost that conflict rather handily. The
> cannon were of poor quality and usually quite aged--the same
> issue the Spanish had about sixty years later when facing a
> *modern* imperialist power.
>
> But the Chinese did use rockets and cannon militarily from
> at least the 15th century AD, but in all likelihood far
> longer. It wasn't refined into broadsides and grapeshot,
> but the idea that China had gunpowder and 'didn't know what
> to do with it' is nothing more than an amazingly persistent
> (imperial) myth.
Ooh, rockets! Would they have been on ships or only on land? I know the British
used rockets from ships at some point.
> During WWII, the Japanese were impressing sampans into service
> as ASW craft, if the USN is to be believed on the matter--if
> you put a 6-pdr and some ashcans on a junk you might get lucky.
> You might also blow yourself out of the water, but hey, it's
> worth it...?
>
> Note to self: Model Bushnell's _Turtle_ for the Pirate Game...
>
> > > -would sailors/pirates have been armed with muskets, or only swords and • such?
> >
> > Well, depends on whether you want to do a historical diorama or play the
> > Pirate Game = )
> >
> > I would imagine it depends on the time period. Generally, Pirates have
> > access to the same or sometimes better armaments than average people by
> > virtue of the fact that they generally, plunder and steal v. invent.
>
> I agree, depends on the period. Japanese had small arms from
> their first contact with the Dutch and Portuguese, though it
> was quite regulated. It did however cause havoc and (IIRC)
> those who ventured out onto the sea would have gained these
> weapons through trade and plunder. The only catch is that not
> too many small arms were produced 'at home'--it was restricted
> and only for those who could afford them socially and fiscally.
> But pirates were pretty good at improvisation, at least the
> idealised sort we're trying to emulate.
>
> > At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be • employed.
>
> Composite bows definitely--China and Japan learnt that from
> the Mongols in much the same way that Europe did, with the
> major difference that the Mongols *became* China's ruling
> class...but Japan and Korea, definitely.
I'll probably go with muskets, bows, and swords.
> > > -what would they have worn - helmets, bare-headed, or the pirate 'do-rags'?
> >
> > I believe pirates would be utilitarian in their approach to armaments and
> > garb. While armor and helmets maybe handy on the grassy-plain battlefield,
> > they would be a liability at sea, on a small vessel. It is proably much
> > easier to crawl around a ship and do sailory things in clothing that is as
> > light as possible. As I understand it, pirate was generally not an accepted
> > vocational choice. Most of the individuals invloved were most likely
> > criminals, slaves, theives, etc. with limited education and no assets. The
> > strength of most piratical types was their ability to hit quickly, quietly
> > and escape; anything that encumbered was probably useless.
>
> I'd bet they'd wear sock-hats if pirates. What you're saying
> above, Europe only learnt after Lepanto (1571) and the Armada
> (you don't need *that* year, do you?). IIRC most sailors also
> shaved their heads very close or bald--no sense anyone having
> something to grab onto.
I guess I'm going to have to acquire a bunch of black do-rags.
> It's also that pirates are living in the same clothing day in,
> day out, so they wash and wear it, swim in it, and sweat in
> it. Considering that the real wealth was not in the Yellow
> Sea or even the Sea of Japan, but further south towards the
> Philippines and what is today Indonesia, it was probably also
> quite hot most of the time.
>
> Incidentally, buccaneer crews were often a pastiche. A pirate
> who started out 'Japanese' would quickly pick up new crew in
> the act of piracy or at ports-of-call, and lose original crew
> in battle or (more often) to disease, so after a couple of years
> it might be more a Moluccan or Madurese crew than a Japanese
> one. In the Atlantic, for example, crews were almost equal
> parts African, European, and 'mixed' Caribbean/North American,
> with no designated 'identity' beyond that of the captain.
>
> > As an interesting aside...
> > There was an EXCELLENT PBS special awhile back documenting a diving
> > expedition near Bahrain showig a sunken junk. Long before the Europeans
> > were venturing beyond their coastlines, China hadd the largest fleet in the
> > world, thousands of junks. These Chines merchant fleets travelled from Asia
> > to India, to Arabia, to Africa and back. There were "treasure" junks
> > supposedly larger than most European ships built during the age of sale.
> > Some Junks were 300 feet long with 5-7 masts. Very impressive haulig
> > capacity and design.
>
> Yeah. See above for the book cite--again, well worth a weekend
> of sporadic reading. I managed to sneak it onto my exam reading
> list for global history...;)
A professor who assigns actual books! Where do you teach? I used to be a
history major as well as PoliSci, but I had to drop it because the classes and
professors were a joke. One of my professors whom I had to continually correct
finally told me that 'dates aren't that important'.
Thank you very much for the info, everybody!
-Marc
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"Marc Nelson Jr." wrote:
>
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> > In lugnet.castle.ninja, John Robert-Blaze Kanehl writes:
> > > In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
>
> > > > Well, you have definitely inspired me - I already have my pirate crew
> > > > assembled, and I'm going to start working on my junk today. I have some
> > > > questions about Japanese naval history (for you or anybody else who knows):
> > > > -did junks ever carry cannon?
> > >
> > > To the best of my knowledge, junks (later called san-pans) were
> > > Chinese/Korean in origin.
> >
> > I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
> > and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
> > during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
> > torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
> > else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
> > I digress, as usual).
>
> Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines
> the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's
> History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in
> there about subs.
"Blind Man's Bluff" is a great book about the history of submarine
warfare.
>
> >
> > Incidentally, buccaneer crews were often a pastiche. A pirate
> > who started out 'Japanese' would quickly pick up new crew in
> > the act of piracy or at ports-of-call, and lose original crew
> > in battle or (more often) to disease, so after a couple of years
> > it might be more a Moluccan or Madurese crew than a Japanese
> > one. In the Atlantic, for example, crews were almost equal
> > parts African, European, and 'mixed' Caribbean/North American,
> > with no designated 'identity' beyond that of the captain.
Japanese pirates during the period that the Ninja sets apply often
picked up Koreans from ports they raided as part of the crew.
Chris
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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> > I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
> > and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
> > during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
> > torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
> > else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
> > I digress, as usual).
>
> Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines
> the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's
> History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in
> there about subs.
The most entertaining book I read about US subs in the Pacific
was the venerable 'Pig Boats,' a popular-issue book that was
as of 1992 still available in paperback. As for academic books,
Morison like most was still enamoured with the skimmers. They
don't quite appreciate that it's the submarines that may have
been the decisive arm of the Navy. US subs were operating close
to Japan from early 1942 on--even, for a time, in the Sea of
Japan. They were responsible for something like 1/2 of all
naval tonnage sunk as well as about 80% of all merchant shipping
lost by Japan during the war. From around 7 million tons of
ships, plus ~3 million built during the war, down to about 200,000
tons at the end. Ack. What Germany attempted, it seems, the US
brought to fruition.
Oooh, the train. That's a great story. By 1945, with few
targets to shoot at, bored sub crews would occasionally shell
the coast at random and, in one instance, sent about five or six
people ashore with a torpedo warhead and set it up on the local
railroad tracks so it'd take the train out...as for other odd
things, USS Bowfin (IIRC) has a dock, a crane, and a bus on its
battle flag--because, well, it torpedoed a dock, and the crane
and bus came down with it. They came in *close* from 1944 on,
even picking up downed fliers in Tokyo Bay.
> > That's China you're talking about. The Treasure Fleet of
> > Cheng He that made many voyages to south Asia and East Africa
> > was, in fact, the largest fleet assembled during the age of
> > sail. Not until the Jubilee reviews of Victorian Britain
> > did larger fleets appear.
> >
> > For some reason, the Emperor decided that any ship over two
> > masts (IIRC) was no longer allowed--records were destroyed,
> > skills lost, and the like. I've seen drawings of some of
> > these ships from the eunuch's treasure fleet--they were
> > friggin' *enormous*, six-masted things roughly four times
> > the size of Columbus's whole expedition.
>
> I think I read somewhere that he was also a Muslim and that didn't go over too
> well.
I'm not sure--usually when someone becomes a eunuch that's
pretty much the defining characteristic of their being. It's
also the source of their incredible power. The Chinese attitude
was that, with enough work, anyone could become civilized like
the Chinese (and then of course pay homage...).
> > A citation for those interested: _When China Ruled the Seas:
> > The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1400-1433_ by Louise
> > Levathes (London: Simon & Shuster, 1994) is *the* reference
> > for the mighty Ming navy, and a splendid piece of scholarship
> > to boot. Take that, Flash Gordon!
>
> I put a hold on that. Thanks, Lindsay.
I hope it's as exciting as I think it is...we history geeks can
find the most boring works fascinating. I mean, come on, I study
surveying for goodness sake.
> > But the Chinese did use rockets and cannon militarily from
> > at least the 15th century AD, but in all likelihood far
> > longer. It wasn't refined into broadsides and grapeshot,
> > but the idea that China had gunpowder and 'didn't know what
> > to do with it' is nothing more than an amazingly persistent
> > (imperial) myth.
>
> Ooh, rockets! Would they have been on ships or only on land? I know the British
> used rockets from ships at some point.
'And the rockets' red glare...' 18th century on.
IIRC the rockets were also seaborne. They had more scare-
the-locals and start-big-fires value than anything--no 18th-
century Wehrner von Brauns running about or the like. They
were all solid-fuel, too.
> > I agree, depends on the period. Japanese had small arms from
> > their first contact with the Dutch and Portuguese, though it
> > was quite regulated. It did however cause havoc and (IIRC)
> > those who ventured out onto the sea would have gained these
> > weapons through trade and plunder. The only catch is that not
> > too many small arms were produced 'at home'--it was restricted
> > and only for those who could afford them socially and fiscally.
> > But pirates were pretty good at improvisation, at least the
> > idealised sort we're trying to emulate.
> >
> > > At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be • employed.
> >
> > Composite bows definitely--China and Japan learnt that from
> > the Mongols in much the same way that Europe did, with the
> > major difference that the Mongols *became* China's ruling
> > class...but Japan and Korea, definitely.
>
> I'll probably go with muskets, bows, and swords.
I forget the name, but the Japanese had a word for the musket
that dates to the 16th century. I remember an article had been
written on the use of gunpowder in Japan following European
contact, and how it was eventually contained, but the cite has
escaped me at present. I'll ask the Dutch when I talk to them.
> > Yeah. See above for the book cite--again, well worth a weekend
> > of sporadic reading. I managed to sneak it onto my exam reading
> > list for global history...;)
>
> A professor who assigns actual books! Where do you teach? I used to be a
> history major as well as PoliSci, but I had to drop it because the classes and
> professors were a joke. One of my professors whom I had to continually correct
> finally told me that 'dates aren't that important'.
Actually, your professor is kind of correct. Memorizing dates
is like memorizing chemical interactions--that's what references
are there for. You need to know the basics, the generalities,
the trends, and the big stories, but one can very easily become
bogged down in dates, which don't mean anything by themselves.
HOWever you generally try not to say that after class has begun.
You point it out from the very start. (I only grade down on
dates when the dates are wayyyyy off...or the order. Who knew
that the US Civil War was a direct consequence of World War II?)
Faculty a joke? Where on Earth are you? I want to compete in
the job pool against the jokes--man, that's like grenade fishing
in a barrel. I'm still working on my PhD, so they don't give
me too many classes--the exam reading list I'm talking about
is my *own* for the last examination I have to take before I can
forget about jumping through hoops and write my thesis and (gasp)
be done. As much as I like Rutgers, I'm ready to go do something
productive (or at least more financially rewarding) than being
a student.
best
Lindsay
FUT -> .people
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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> > In lugnet.castle.ninja, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> > > I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
> > > and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
> > > during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
> > > torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
> > > else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
> > > I digress, as usual).
> >
> > Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines
> > the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's
> > History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in
> > there about subs.
>
> The most entertaining book I read about US subs in the Pacific
> was the venerable 'Pig Boats,' a popular-issue book that was
> as of 1992 still available in paperback.
Thanks.
> As for academic books,
> Morison like most was still enamoured with the skimmers. They
> don't quite appreciate that it's the submarines that may have
> been the decisive arm of the Navy. US subs were operating close
> to Japan from early 1942 on--even, for a time, in the Sea of
> Japan. They were responsible for something like 1/2 of all
> naval tonnage sunk as well as about 80% of all merchant shipping
> lost by Japan during the war. From around 7 million tons of
> ships, plus ~3 million built during the war, down to about 200,000
> tons at the end. Ack. What Germany attempted, it seems, the US
> brought to fruition.
>
> Oooh, the train. That's a great story. By 1945, with few
> targets to shoot at, bored sub crews would occasionally shell
> the coast at random and, in one instance, sent about five or six
> people ashore with a torpedo warhead and set it up on the local
> railroad tracks so it'd take the train out...as for other odd
> things, USS Bowfin (IIRC) has a dock, a crane, and a bus on its
> battle flag--because, well, it torpedoed a dock, and the crane
> and bus came down with it. They came in *close* from 1944 on,
> even picking up downed fliers in Tokyo Bay.
>
> > > That's China you're talking about. The Treasure Fleet of
> > > Cheng He that made many voyages to south Asia and East Africa
> > > was, in fact, the largest fleet assembled during the age of
> > > sail. Not until the Jubilee reviews of Victorian Britain
> > > did larger fleets appear.
> > >
> > > For some reason, the Emperor decided that any ship over two
> > > masts (IIRC) was no longer allowed--records were destroyed,
> > > skills lost, and the like. I've seen drawings of some of
> > > these ships from the eunuch's treasure fleet--they were
> > > friggin' *enormous*, six-masted things roughly four times
> > > the size of Columbus's whole expedition.
> >
> > I think I read somewhere that he was also a Muslim and that didn't go over • too
> > well.
>
> I'm not sure--usually when someone becomes a eunuch that's
> pretty much the defining characteristic of their being. It's
> also the source of their incredible power. The Chinese attitude
> was that, with enough work, anyone could become civilized like
> the Chinese (and then of course pay homage...).
>
> > > A citation for those interested: _When China Ruled the Seas:
> > > The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1400-1433_ by Louise
> > > Levathes (London: Simon & Shuster, 1994) is *the* reference
> > > for the mighty Ming navy, and a splendid piece of scholarship
> > > to boot. Take that, Flash Gordon!
> >
> > I put a hold on that. Thanks, Lindsay.
>
> I hope it's as exciting as I think it is...we history geeks can
> find the most boring works fascinating. I mean, come on, I study
> surveying for goodness sake.
Wow, even I don't read anything that boring. Actually, at the moment I'm
re-reading a great book, A Naval History of WWI. Before reading it, all I knew
about WWI naval history was Jutland, but this guy (Paul Halpern) goes into
Austro-Italian battles on the Adriatic, Turkish and Russian conflicts in the
Black Sea, gunboats on the Danube, etc. Some of the stuff he describes sounds
very doable in LEGO, if I can find some pics.
> > > I agree, depends on the period. Japanese had small arms from
> > > their first contact with the Dutch and Portuguese, though it
> > > was quite regulated. It did however cause havoc and (IIRC)
> > > those who ventured out onto the sea would have gained these
> > > weapons through trade and plunder. The only catch is that not
> > > too many small arms were produced 'at home'--it was restricted
> > > and only for those who could afford them socially and fiscally.
> > > But pirates were pretty good at improvisation, at least the
> > > idealised sort we're trying to emulate.
> > >
> > > > At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be • employed.
> > >
> > > Composite bows definitely--China and Japan learnt that from
> > > the Mongols in much the same way that Europe did, with the
> > > major difference that the Mongols *became* China's ruling
> > > class...but Japan and Korea, definitely.
> >
> > I'll probably go with muskets, bows, and swords.
>
> I forget the name, but the Japanese had a word for the musket
> that dates to the 16th century. I remember an article had been
> written on the use of gunpowder in Japan following European
> contact, and how it was eventually contained, but the cite has
> escaped me at present. I'll ask the Dutch when I talk to them.
>
> > > Yeah. See above for the book cite--again, well worth a weekend
> > > of sporadic reading. I managed to sneak it onto my exam reading
> > > list for global history...;)
> >
> > A professor who assigns actual books! Where do you teach? I used to be a
> > history major as well as PoliSci, but I had to drop it because the classes • and
> > professors were a joke. One of my professors whom I had to continually • correct
> > finally told me that 'dates aren't that important'.
>
> Actually, your professor is kind of correct. Memorizing dates
> is like memorizing chemical interactions--that's what references
> are there for. You need to know the basics, the generalities,
> the trends, and the big stories, but one can very easily become
> bogged down in dates, which don't mean anything by themselves.
> HOWever you generally try not to say that after class has begun.
> You point it out from the very start. (I only grade down on
> dates when the dates are wayyyyy off...or the order. Who knew
> that the US Civil War was a direct consequence of World War II?)
That's what happened; she had the Japanese overrunning the Phillipines,
Singapore, etc., and THEN attacking Pearl Harbor. I pointed out the error in
class, to which her reply was, "That's what the book says". She finally gave up
after class and then gave me the defense mentioned above.
> Faculty a joke? Where on Earth are you?
Frostburg State University in western MD. That's what happens when you have a
2.3 high school GPA. Thank God for the SAT's.
Another of my history professors shows 2 or 3 videos every class, and the
'video log' that we keep is worth 20% of our grade.
> I want to compete in
> the job pool against the jokes--man, that's like grenade fishing
> in a barrel. I'm still working on my PhD, so they don't give
> me too many classes--the exam reading list I'm talking about
> is my *own* for the last examination I have to take before I can
> forget about jumping through hoops and write my thesis and (gasp)
> be done. As much as I like Rutgers, I'm ready to go do something
> productive (or at least more financially rewarding) than being
> a student.
A friend of mine is waiting to hear back from Rutgers about his grad school
application. How is it up there?
Yeah, the academic life is getting a bit old for me as well. Due to my
less-than-stellar sophomore year and a year in which I only took one class due
to lack of funds, I'm a 4th-year junior.
Hey, were you serious about modeling the Turtle? Because that gave me the idea
to do the Nautilus (the Robert Fulton one, not the Disney one). It would be
pretty cool if we could get somebody to do the Hunley, then we could have a
antique submarine show at the Pirate Game. It would be tough to actually work
them into the game, but it would be pretty neat.
-Marc
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Mr L F Braun wrote:
<SNIP>
> > I'll probably go with muskets, bows, and swords.
>
> I forget the name, but the Japanese had a word for the musket
> that dates to the 16th century. I remember an article had been
> written on the use of gunpowder in Japan following European
> contact, and how it was eventually contained, but the cite has
> escaped me at present. I'll ask the Dutch when I talk to them.
Since the first guns arrived on the island of Tanegashima, guns were
known as tanegashima for a while, but were later called teppo.
Chris
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"Marc Nelson Jr." wrote:
>
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
>
> > No pirate ships. I don't have any and they are WAY too expensive in
> > Japan. Two pics from that MoC are here
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=3548
> > I plan to rebuild and overhaul this idea later since very few of the
> > photos came out well.
> >
> > Chris
>
> That's a great scene! You can build some neat small ships out of non-pirate
> pieces - then you could do a Commodore Perry scene.
I'm still working 300 years before that!
>
> Well, you have definitely inspired me - I already have my pirate crew
> assembled, and I'm going to start working on my junk today. I have some
> questions about Japanese naval history (for you or anybody else who knows):
Before Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea, there was really no Japanese
"navy" so ship building tended to be on a fairly small scale, except for
troop transports which were very boxy.
> -did junks ever carry cannon?
extremely unlikely, but not impossible.
> -would sailors/pirates have been armed with muskets, or only swords and such?
probably bows & arrows and swords, muskets were pretty uncommon since
they were expensive. Pistols absolutely not.
I'm pretty short on my knowledge in this area. Sorry I couldn't help
more.
Chris
> -what would they have worn - helmets, bare-headed, or the pirate 'do-rags'?
>
> Thanks for the inspiration and for sharing your pics.
>
> -Marc
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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> Has anyone considered that pirate minifigs work well as Portugese
> traders and missionaries within the Ninja world? I did a MoC based on
> this which I'll post pics of one day. Maybe I'll get around to doing
> some Nagasaki MoCs since it was one of the few places where Nambanjin
> (southern barbarians) were permitted to live.
>
> Chris Barker
> chris@superfami.com
Definitely! Especially the Imperial Armada troops like in set 6280. I've
even considered adding a William Adams/Blackthorne character to my Samurai
ranks.
Christopher Pisciotti
Loch Forest, CA
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In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> Has anyone considered that pirate minifigs work well as Portugese
> traders and missionaries within the Ninja world?
Yes...when the Ninja theme came out, I immediately thought cool! Shogun with
Lego!
If you ever read or saw James Clavell's "shogun" you'll see that the
Portuguese were very active in Japan. I realize this novel takes great
liberties with historical anologies and cultural observations, but it was a
great read and is fairly well researched)
> I did a MoC based on
> this which I'll post pics of one day. Maybe I'll get around to doing
> some Nagasaki MoCs since it was one of the few places where Nambanjin
> (southern barbarians) were permitted to live.
>
> Chris Barker
> chris@superfami.com
Sounds like a cool project...
I view the Ninja theme as the ultimate bridge between Castle and Pirates in
my collection. The idea of my Ninjada project was to create a fortress and
show its fictional development over the centuries through different eras.
(although the idea came to me while building my first FNF years ago, I owe
some of the subsequent inspiration to Richard Parson's Port Block, which I
discovered on RTL after I came on-line)
Now, I just wish I hadn't sold ALL my Pirate ships to a person who will
remain nameless (and quite heavily armed with cannons and pirate-ey type
stuff = )
Since the Medieval "samurai-era" lasted so long in Japan, I think
integration of Pirate theme ships in MOCs is only logical...and the
possibilties are intriguing.
John
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