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In lugnet.castle.ninja, John Robert-Blaze Kanehl writes:
> In lugnet.castle.ninja, Marc Nelson, Jr. writes:
> > In lugnet.castle.ninja, Chris Barker writes:
> >
> > > No pirate ships. I don't have any and they are WAY too expensive in
> > > Japan. Two pics from that MoC are here
> > > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=3548
> > > I plan to rebuild and overhaul this idea later since very few of the
> > > photos came out well.
> > >
> > > Chris
> >
> > That's a great scene! You can build some neat small ships out of non-pirate
> > pieces - then you could do a Commodore Perry scene.
You'll need some black hulls!
> > Well, you have definitely inspired me - I already have my pirate crew
> > assembled, and I'm going to start working on my junk today. I have some
> > questions about Japanese naval history (for you or anybody else who knows):
> > -did junks ever carry cannon?
>
> To the best of my knowledge, junks (later called san-pans) were
> Chinese/Korean in origin.
I think there's a minor difference between full-blown junks
and sampans (sorry, I learned the spelling used by the US Navy
during WWII--as maru traffic vanished, US subs began spending
torpedoes on sampans...and quays, and bridges, and anything
else--in one case a warhead was used to blow up a train. But
I digress, as usual). The usual point made is that sampans
are Japanese, junks are Chinese. I'm not fully sure where
the Korean equivalents fall.
> I was under the impression that a majority of Japanese ships were coastal
> vessels, small fishing boats or galleys, designed for short journeys and
> capable of navigating close to shore. I understood that due to cultural
> viewws and Imperial decrees, large shps were not constructed for quite some
> time.
That's China you're talking about. The Treasure Fleet of
Cheng He that made many voyages to south Asia and East Africa
was, in fact, the largest fleet assembled during the age of
sail. Not until the Jubilee reviews of Victorian Britain
did larger fleets appear.
For some reason, the Emperor decided that any ship over two
masts (IIRC) was no longer allowed--records were destroyed,
skills lost, and the like. I've seen drawings of some of
these ships from the eunuch's treasure fleet--they were
friggin' *enormous*, six-masted things roughly four times
the size of Columbus's whole expedition.
A citation for those interested: _When China Ruled the Seas:
The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1400-1433_ by Louise
Levathes (London: Simon & Shuster, 1994) is *the* reference
for the mighty Ming navy, and a splendid piece of scholarship
to boot. Take that, Flash Gordon!
> Regarding cannons... A long time ago I read about pirates that had mounted
> small cannons on junks and were harassing villages and ports in China BUT,
> this was during World War II!
During the Opium War(s--really more of a constant struggle) of
the 1840s, Chinese junks with cannon were employed. Not
too shockingly, China lost that conflict rather handily. The
cannon were of poor quality and usually quite aged--the same
issue the Spanish had about sixty years later when facing a
*modern* imperialist power.
But the Chinese did use rockets and cannon militarily from
at least the 15th century AD, but in all likelihood far
longer. It wasn't refined into broadsides and grapeshot,
but the idea that China had gunpowder and 'didn't know what
to do with it' is nothing more than an amazingly persistent
(imperial) myth.
During WWII, the Japanese were impressing sampans into service
as ASW craft, if the USN is to be believed on the matter--if
you put a 6-pdr and some ashcans on a junk you might get lucky.
You might also blow yourself out of the water, but hey, it's
worth it...?
Note to self: Model Bushnell's _Turtle_ for the Pirate Game...
> > -would sailors/pirates have been armed with muskets, or only swords and such?
>
> Well, depends on whether you want to do a historical diorama or play the
> Pirate Game = )
>
> I would imagine it depends on the time period. Generally, Pirates have
> access to the same or sometimes better armaments than average people by
> virtue of the fact that they generally, plunder and steal v. invent.
I agree, depends on the period. Japanese had small arms from
their first contact with the Dutch and Portuguese, though it
was quite regulated. It did however cause havoc and (IIRC)
those who ventured out onto the sea would have gained these
weapons through trade and plunder. The only catch is that not
too many small arms were produced 'at home'--it was restricted
and only for those who could afford them socially and fiscally.
But pirates were pretty good at improvisation, at least the
idealised sort we're trying to emulate.
> At the very least, I would think spears, bows, and crossbows would be employed.
Composite bows definitely--China and Japan learnt that from
the Mongols in much the same way that Europe did, with the
major difference that the Mongols *became* China's ruling
class...but Japan and Korea, definitely.
> > -what would they have worn - helmets, bare-headed, or the pirate 'do-rags'?
>
> I believe pirates would be utilitarian in their approach to armaments and
> garb. While armor and helmets maybe handy on the grassy-plain battlefield,
> they would be a liability at sea, on a small vessel. It is proably much
> easier to crawl around a ship and do sailory things in clothing that is as
> light as possible. As I understand it, pirate was generally not an accepted
> vocational choice. Most of the individuals invloved were most likely
> criminals, slaves, theives, etc. with limited education and no assets. The
> strength of most piratical types was their ability to hit quickly, quietly
> and escape; anything that encumbered was probably useless.
I'd bet they'd wear sock-hats if pirates. What you're saying
above, Europe only learnt after Lepanto (1571) and the Armada
(you don't need *that* year, do you?). IIRC most sailors also
shaved their heads very close or bald--no sense anyone having
something to grab onto.
It's also that pirates are living in the same clothing day in,
day out, so they wash and wear it, swim in it, and sweat in
it. Considering that the real wealth was not in the Yellow
Sea or even the Sea of Japan, but further south towards the
Philippines and what is today Indonesia, it was probably also
quite hot most of the time.
Incidentally, buccaneer crews were often a pastiche. A pirate
who started out 'Japanese' would quickly pick up new crew in
the act of piracy or at ports-of-call, and lose original crew
in battle or (more often) to disease, so after a couple of years
it might be more a Moluccan or Madurese crew than a Japanese
one. In the Atlantic, for example, crews were almost equal
parts African, European, and 'mixed' Caribbean/North American,
with no designated 'identity' beyond that of the captain.
> As an interesting aside...
> There was an EXCELLENT PBS special awhile back documenting a diving
> expedition near Bahrain showig a sunken junk. Long before the Europeans
> were venturing beyond their coastlines, China hadd the largest fleet in the
> world, thousands of junks. These Chines merchant fleets travelled from Asia
> to India, to Arabia, to Africa and back. There were "treasure" junks
> supposedly larger than most European ships built during the age of sale.
> Some Junks were 300 feet long with 5-7 masts. Very impressive haulig
> capacity and design.
Yeah. See above for the book cite--again, well worth a weekend
of sporadic reading. I managed to sneak it onto my exam reading
list for global history...;)
best
Lindsay
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: pirate + ninja
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| (...) Was the train in the water? Can you recommend any good books about submarines the Pacific theater? I've read the Pacific volumes of Samuel Eliot Morison's History of US Naval Operations, but I don't remember there being too much in there about (...) (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle.ninja, lugnet.pirates)
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| | Re: pirate + ninja
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| (...) To the best of my knowledge, junks (later called san-pans) were Chinese/Korean in origin. I was under the impression that a majority of Japanese ships were coastal vessels, small fishing boats or galleys, designed for short journeys and (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle.ninja, lugnet.pirates)
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