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		Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
(...) Didn't I explain this before? I'm asking Larry where the line he's imagining is, not saying anything about what I believe with that statement-- And again, IF one asserts that animals do NOT have rights, and that humans DO, at some (...) (23 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.392)

		Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
(...) I never said they must emerge in their "fully developed" state-- only that they must, at some point, be considered "self-aware" at some point. And again, that's only assuming that at one point they DON'T exist AT ALL, and at another (...) (23 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.392)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) There is nothing amoral about a lion killing a wilder beast with all its might – it is its natural right to do so. A lion will kill its prey as quickly and cleanly as it can – it does not pump it full of antibiotics and growth hormones first. (...) (23 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) No. Not at all. I meant consumption levels. I used to share an office with a guy who has utter contempt for anyone who is more than a pound overweight, gay or a Catholic(1). I was thinking of him when I wrote the text. He lives in the USA (...) (23 years ago, 12-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) My aim was to show how western morels have treated these two so differently. One is bought by the west so he can go on trial for murder, the other is given ~3.5 billion dollars in aid per year so that he may continue to murder. At the same (...) (23 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Handgun Death Rate
(...) So don't bother trying at all, eh? Is there any way to prove your notion, Tom? I think America could at least TRY to ban all handguns, for heaven's sake. And make penalties stiffer for people, namely criminals, found with guns. I really hate (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, property
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
(...) Sort of, but you seem to keep forcing the choice to be made between only two options in a field of possibilities. (...) Not necessarily wrong, but the attempt is misguided if it seeks to form a hard distinction where none exists. You're (...) (23 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) Evidence? (...) Again, do you have evidence that other animals can't choose? (...) We may be higher on the sliding "moral" scale than most animals, but I don't agree that all other animals are at the bottom (ie totally amoral). I think (...) (23 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Is this sexism?
(...) <snipped all the rest because I'm not disagreeing with it> I'm afraid I am still "stuck" on rights. (and I've been stuck on them before) What are rights? How do you know if you have them? Let's talk about organisms other than man for a bit. (...) (23 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
I'm very confused. Chris: (...) Scott: (...) Larry: (...) Scott: (...) Scott, please clarify. What is your position? Or is it merely whatever Larry is not? (...) Do you not do the same? Don't I? Doesn't Larry? Don't all morally conscious (...) (23 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) But nature allows killing for the sake of survival. I have no problem taking the life of any human being who is trying to take my life or my wife's or child, and I have no problem being absolutely brutal in doing so if it means survival. If (...) (23 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) Why? He's done it before. Why enable him dodging a simple yes no question by urging him to indulge himself rather than urging a straight answer? Besides, I freely admit that I don't always have all the answers nor do I always answer every (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.391)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) I'm glad you can understand what "none" means. (...) You are correct, it is not all that clear what I mean (from my perspective). I was agreeing that the lion's view can not be viewed within a moral framework, but I also think they should (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.390)

		Re: Laws about sex.... (was something else)
(...) And this is something we need to be extremely carefull of. Anyone can become a suspect. Probing of suspects (and witnesses) must be based on careful documentation of the expectation of finding something. Extreme care must also be taken to keep (...) (23 years ago, 17-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, property
(score: 2.390)

		Re: Drugs and guns
(...) :-) (...) The smiley was meant (though obviously unsuccessfully) to point to my silly irony and indicate that such a result would _not_ be the best possible outcome. But I do think that it would be the outcome of a gun ban in the US. And I (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, property
(score: 2.390)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) I for one would actually like to see you do that. Demonstrate away.... (...) Speaking of language, could you try re-stating that again? That is a very difficult sentence to read - and I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth. (...) Leave it (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.390)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) Ah, excellent. But then see below. (...) (URL) for those (like me) who hate to follow links: Scott: (...) Chris: (...) Scott: (...) So, in that case, perhaps I should ask this: Were you wrong to agree? Or were to agreeing with something else? (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.390)

		Re: Rolling Blackouts
(...) there's an interesting project being run by PETA looking at these very issues ( (URL) ). I first looked at the site last year and found it pretty interesting. Probabaly the only thing PETA has ever done that I almost like. (...) Larry, I think (...) (23 years ago, 4-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.390)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) I'm not sure what infering our morals on them really means, but I do agree that we are anthropocentric in our judgement of other critters. But I'm not sure a) that this is a bad thing, or b) that it is possible to get away from. How would we (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.390)

		Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
(...) No no, your position on whether animals are moral/immoral OR amoral. Do you think they are moral/immoral or amoral? If your position is in fact the one above then you wouldn't be allowing yourself to even HAVE an opinion on the issue, and yet (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

all, rights
(score: 2.390)

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