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(...) But have you, personally, conducted these various experiments to prove the existance of Brazil, or are you accepting the testimonial evidence of those that have? If you have not actually verified for yourself that Brazil exists, you take it on (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) You are confusing an overwhelming body of evidence that reduces the probablity of inaccuracy to virtually nothing with "faith". You are also confusing reproducable results through a set experiment with no reproducable results that have no set (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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Aaargh! I typed lengthy responses to two respective posts by you and by David, and both times my workplace suffered a blink in power, rebooting my computer. Thus we are all denied the glory of my wisdom, and thus we must all take on faith that I (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Not in the least. You're taking people's word for it. "That's a picture of the earth from a satellite. Here's Brazil." Proof? Only if you *believe* the person. And that's faith-- at least in my book. Faith in that person's credibility, and (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) We're fairly obviously working with different defintions of faith & evidence. What David (I think) & I are basically saying is that we take *everything* on faith. To function as individuals & as groups, we make certain assumptions, the two (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Darn. And I thought I was winning. Oh well. :) (...) Ah, but God's existence can be verified by experiment. The only problem is that the method of experimentation is too vague to be sure that you're doing it 'right'. Were I Joe the Christian (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Actually, you are trying to say everything is equally valid because everything comes down to faith. I disagree. (...) Maybe. Test it against knowns and see if consistent results are obtained. (...) No, you are assuming that I am assuming such. (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) WHOA! That is completely not what I'm saying. (...) How do you test to see if your thought processes are valid? How do you test to see if the world is consistent with your perception of the world? Where are the knowns in that equation? (...) (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) You can log in on a website and access sat photos. Ones detailed enough to identify your own car in a parking lot. Those satellites can then pick out cars in Brazil. If you have the infinite time, you can step your way from wherever you live (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Major snippage of worthy discussion, but the really important part is here. Rummaging for a dictionary... faith 1. Complete confidence or trust. 2. Belief in God or the doctrines of religion. 3. A system of religious belief. 4. Loyality or (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Yup. I figured it was a definition thing after the first couple of messages back and forth. I don't like the dictionary you're using. :) I have never understood faith as "complete confidence or trust", but rather "confidence or trust". With (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Aha! EXACTLY the point. "Proof enough for YOU" != "Proof". Right? Becuase if I say God exists because I've had "Proof enough for ME", you'd argue that I was wrong, I assume. But back to Brazil-- You'd probably concede (I hope) that if there (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) #2 applies to yourself, and you are stretching #1 to apply to me and then are making the erroneus conclusion that they are equivalent. You further listing below does not support your assertation, and the further one I provided also doesn't. (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) I'm gonna go ahead and agree with James-- If that's the definition of faith you're using, then I agree with you. But honestly? I think dictionaries are wrong. I have more faith in my comprehension of certain words than faith in the (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Ding ding! We have a winner! (although I'd qualify that 'logical proof' as 'proof', not 'logical proof') (...) Logical proof? First off, what's logical proof? And second, prove logically that all perceptions of physical events are more valid (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) That IS exactly what you are trying to say. You are welcome to correct me, but then explain what you are trying to do, since your initial point was that science is based on faith (at some point) and religion is based on faith, so they aren't (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) We've been over the scientific process already. (...) I already said don't accept what your senses tell you on faith. We've been over this before. Time is a logical construct that we use, but in fact may be simply an illusion to our limited (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) <snip a lot> (...) Whoa... where do you draw the conclusion that #2 applies to me? I *really* think you're coming at this with a fairly large prejudice against "faith" in any form. Words can have different meanings in different contexts, and I (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Wrong. This makes the presumption that I don't have religious faith (note I have not lined up with the atheists). As to the other point, it may not apply to you personally, just the approach you are arguing. (...) Yes, that's my point. Faith (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Perceptions and Reality (was Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism)
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(...) The inherent difference in the two ('science' vs. 'religion') is that for you, me, and I would argue, most, if not all humans, 'science' proves itself more worthy of faith. I.E. to argue against true 'science' is to look absurd, but to argue (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Ah, but you do... can you PROVE that any of your senses will always be consistant? I don't think so, at least. But you develop a trust-- a faith-- in your physical senses. You come to believe them, because they've been consistant in the past. (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Heck no! My right eye is slightly red shifted and my left eye sees slightly green shifted (relative to each other). Further, the effect is more pronounced when I wake up sometimes. (...) Clearly I can't. :-) (...) Or inconsistent in a way I (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Wait, just got confused for a sec-- yes what? Yes you can prove both A & B? (I assume no) Yes you can prove that metaphysical senses AREN'T being consistant, AND that metaphysical senses are inconsistent in ways you can't see? Or yes you can (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) My brain hurts just reading that! :-) I was agreeing with you. (...) Both seek to explain the world around us, but approach it at different levels. Ultimately, one is taken as a matter of faith, the other isn't. (...) That is correct. Well, (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Ok, phew! (...) Ah. Maybe this is the semantic that we've been missing. I'm dealing with religion in the theoretical sense. In my mind, I'm referring to what religion COULD be, not necessarily what it IS. My implication is that IF one judged (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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(...) Er... oops. Meant to say: "I kinda wonder whether I'd call mathematics as being explored by the scientific method..." (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with science and metaphysics
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(...) I agree that religion isn't necessarily wrong - though it would seem the conflicting claims of the religions, not to mention the sects within the religions would indicate that somebody *is* wrong somewhere! But then again, maybe every one of (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with science and metaphysics
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(...) I perfectly agree, as was my point, I think-- it's not NECESSARILY wrong, but I *think* it's wrong based on what I've seen... (...) That's kinda what I thought might be happening-- I.E. I'm taking the absolutest of theoretical arguments, (...) (23 years ago, 23-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Problems with science and metaphysics
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(...) No, it's universal because any advanced (I'm speaking extra-terrestrial) society is going to come up with the exact same rules. Different languages, different morals, different outlooks, different values, but the math will be the same. Bruce (23 years ago, 23-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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