 | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Ross Crawford
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| | | (...) OK. You asserted "animals are amoral" with nothing to back it up. Go type "dog hero" into your favourite search engine, look through the list of hits. Many acts can be explained by (the dog exhibiting) self preservation, but what causes a dog (...) (23 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | (...) Good examples! Dogs are pack animals, it is true. Is that sufficient to explain these behaviours? I don't know. Saving one's meal ticket would exhibit forethought. Do dogs have such? The conventional answer is that they don't, so that's not an (...) (23 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | (...) Important point to keep in mind: amoral does not equal immoral. Immorality implies that the converse--morality--exists. But can't a competing, "dog idea" of morality exist? Why must human morality be ported to a dog, when moralism is (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, the idea is (in my mind) that morality in general has some "root" to it in order to be deemed morality at all. Heck, your morality is just as misplaced when ported to me as when mine is ported to a dog. And yet we do both. Are our (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) What about dolphins which have saved people with probably no real opportunity for bonding? My feeling is that most of what makes us human is not unique to us, but is exhibited to at least some degree by other animals. It is interesting to note (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | I'm responding to various layers here...not just Frank. (...) hits. (...) It seems that your observation of an animal acting on what I think could be explained through instinct and self-interest has lead you to assign morality. I'm not convinced. (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | | | (...) <snipped some stuff here and there> (...) Same could be asked about women with motherhood (motherly instincts). How much is learned, how much is hard wired? Most people disagree but I really believe that people are hard wired with so many more (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —David Eaton
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| | | | | | (...) The question is, what constitutes proof of morality? Prove to me that *you* have a concept of morality. Perhaps morality itself is instinctive, even? Once you can draw the hard line between instinct and intelligence you've made a tremendous (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) You're creating a false dichotomy between a la "it must happen at specific point X, or else it cannot happen at all." This is simply untrue. I would assert that, far from occuring at a single, threshhold point, morality is a system of values (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) I whole-heartedly agree. However, in order to argue that animals do *NOT* have it and that humans *DO*, something must be different. But I don't argue that. Accepting the premise that animals *DON'T*, I hold that at some *point*, morality (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | (...) Before someone points out my error, I'll just correct myself here. It can be argued, and come to think of it, I think *should* be argued that self-consciousness *is* the prerequisite (sp?) of which I was speaking-- I merely was assuming a (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) Don't I do this by discussing concepts of morality with you? (...) Do you mean the ability to conceive of morality and the lack there of, and different sets of morals? Or do you mean the tendency to act in a way that we consider moral? (...) (...) (23 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) I think that until we have clear evidence that animals understand morality, we have to assume that they probably don't. Even if an animal does lots of nice things, I wouldn't call it moral unless it had the ability to decide to do not-nice (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | (...) How well do humans understand morality? I doubt animals would have the same idea of morality as humans, heck even different humans have different ideas... (...) Type "pit bull attack" into your favourite search engine. Do these animals know (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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