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(...) Well, he *was* writing the *dissent*... My point was the the majority used the concept of a national consensus for justification. If *that's* valid, then I would think that that justification would apply to the pledge case as well (where I (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: [snipitty] (...) Unless I'm totally misremembering, a good number of the 'American forefathers' were Deists, not Christians. A Deist's 'god' would definitely not be the Judeo-Christian God. Steve (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) a picture of a Jefferson who appreciates the topical philosophy of Jesus while not attributing divinity. Hell, if you include people like that under the umbrella of Christianity, then I suppose you'd call me a Christian too. But of course (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So in addition to being a self-admited homophobic, misogynist bigot, you also presume to judge who can sincerely invoke God's name? How many times have you cast the first stone, John? (...) Atheism is as American as apple pie. My right to be (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, it was about *NOT* executing the mentally retarded, but your point is off-the-mark at any rate. Scalia castigated the SC for what he perceived as an attempt to establish a national consensus where none exists. If that's the case, (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is a perfectly valid observation. Certainly there are those that feel the 9th Circuit Court's ruling will be struck down along those lines - the "liberal" Los Angeles Times entitled it's editorial on the subject "A Godforsaken Ruling" and (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This has nothing to do with Christianity-- you are the one who mentioned it and thus you are the one who denegrated this debate to sarcasm and whatnot (and in doing so missed my initial point entirely). Read Jefferson's Virginia Statute of (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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(...) What I'm arguing is that the FF used religious language pretty freely (non-specific to be sure). Of course they didn't want a state-sponsored religion, but at the same time they recognized the importance of religion to the people. (...) (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(URL) now I'm really done. I'm not wasting any more time on someone who doesn't know any better, and doesn't want to know any better. Read other branches of the thread, John. ALL of the rest of us are wrong about Jefferson, and you know better -- is (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(URL) now I'm really done. I'm not wasting any more time on someone who doesn't know any better, and doesn't want to know any better. Read other branches of the thread, John. ALL of the rest of us are wrong about Jefferson, and you know better -- is (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) When he professes that "I am a Christian", I think it makes my argument better than yours. (...) Ahh. Welcome to Christianity 101. You think every Christian believes the same thing? And FWIW, (...) So what's your point? (...) Fine. -John (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As far as you know. (...) Your cite? (...) The point is that that kind of "religious" language permeates their thought and writings, however they "really" felt about it. You are correct that Jefferson and others cleverly didn't get specific (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Really, John! Do you think Richard is going to fall for that old trick? This is a debate about the separation of church and state, *not* about creationism. The "non-stupidness" of Jefferson referred to by Froggy is merely that he knew how to (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) While Jefferson embraced the ideas of Christ (perhaps the parables, sort of the red letter stuff), he was fairly hostile to the idea of Christ's divinity and to certain aspects of the gospels (esp. Pauline thought). I don't think that (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, *I* was going to try and keep it above specifics, but since you mentioned it.... And I don't feel like looking up all your past (...) No need to wonder. I am indeed a Christian, although I feel that that fact is moot in this discussion. (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Indeed. Although I haven't read the founders as such, I can read the Declaration of Independence and find that the alleged invocation is of the form of "...the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Amen, brother!!!! You are preaching to the choir on that one! (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right -- Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, etc... (...) Yes, fair enough -- but while there continues to be some psycho-xtian movement afoot to show that the framers were bible thumpers -- or that they even cared about such things, I think I can (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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(...) Um, you're overgeneralizing. SOME of the Founding Fathers were indeed professed and practicing christians... Just not any of the ones that did the heavy lifting to get this nation off the ground. So you need to be more specific, I think, (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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(...) It's pretty obvious what brands of religion are going to be the most concerned about this issue. And I don't feel like looking up all your past posts merely to discover that you ARE indeed some kind of christian, it is my assumption that you (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jun-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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