Subject:
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Re: Designation conflict
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.build.mecha
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Date:
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Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:59:18 GMT
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Reply-To:
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wubwub@wildlink=stopspam=.com
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2063 times
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"Ben Vaughan" <buster@marsbase.com> wrote:
>
> "Stephen F Roberts" <wubwub@wildlink.com> wrote in message
> news:6hivdssdkbvjj3r99j4ica1g052njq596u@4ax.com...
> > "Ben Vaughan" <buster@marsbase.com> wrote:
> >
> > > <SOAPBOX>Generally (as I understand it at least), an assault is a direct
> > > confrontation, usually from the front. With a prepared defender, losses • to
> > > the attacking forces can be frighteningly high. With this in mind, the
> > > light, fast mecha doesn't seem to be well suited to the role. It may be
> > > able to reach the defender's lines, assuming it survives that far, but • most
> > > likely won't have enough armament to force an exploitable breach in those
> > > same lines.
> >
> > ...A light assault unit's primary goal is not to exploit or create a
> > breach, but to engage the enemy and keep them distracted while heavier
> > units can roll up. Even with light weapons, a small mecha cant just be
> > ignored when its close, so has to be dealt with.
>
> If you are attacking along the same front, where's the distraction? The
> defender's will be able to see the heavies coming. Granted, the light mecha
> will have to be dealt with, but attacking a prepared defense is never a fun
> thing to do. Besides, that defender is most likely expecting assault mecha
> already, since your side has them already, so, unless you're attacking
> unprepared or underequipped troops, what kind of odds would you give the
> lightweights? If the distraction is to come elsewhere, isn't that going to
> involve the use of mobility and manuver? That's something the light units
> should be used for anyway. An alternative is to use the light mecha to put
> in push that will pin the defenders, then roll the heavies in on the flank,
> or vise versa. Either way, you use the types in conjunction, rather than as
> a replacement for one type or the other.
...In this discussion, I suppose the term 'assault' should not be used
to assume a full frontal assault (which, like in WWI, was a general
stupid thing to do), but instead refer to an assault along the best
front possible given the conditions.
...In terms of finding said 'best front', superheavy and even heavy
mecha just arent capable of moving fast enough to find and exploit a
weakness. Unless the attacker has total CCCI (command, control,
communications, intelligence) superiority, likely the defender will be
able to know where the heavy support is (at least in broad terms) and
will be able to position forces to counter.
...Which brings up the 'light/medium' mecha debate. Light assault
mecha (medium weight, but focused on armour vice armament) would be
able to 1) find the weak points in the defense and hold them or at
least distract them or 2) keep the 'front line' defenders
pinned/occupoed while the heavier units disengage and move to a
different front.
...Of course, you have to expect high losses when you have lighter
mecha moving against any serious defense. But if you have balanced
your force well, by the time they clear the gnats pestering them, your
big boys will be there to 'finish the job'. If u just roll in heavy vs
heavy you have a boring slug match, but if u roll in light first, then
by the time the defender is ready, he is weakened to the point that
hopefully only one or two blows will finish it.
> > > Medium and Light mecha would seem to better suited to secondary roles • like
> > > supporting the following waves that move through the breach and use their
> > > speed in the enemies rear. Granted, even a light mecha can have • devastating
> > > effects on infantry, but given the environment in which assault mecha • would
> > > even be necessary, it's pretty easy to that the light weights would be
> > > pretty out-classed in a slugging match.
>
> Whoops! that should read "...it's pretty easy to *assume* ..."
> To expand further, Light mecha would be very effective against infantry, but
> what about heavy anti-mech defenses? You've got to expect a defender to
> have a go at you with everything he's got. Weapons a mecha carries can be
> used just as effectively by ground based troops, see:
> http://www.marsbase.com/archive/rrt/scram.html (granted, it's fictional, but
> isn't the basis for this whole discussion?)
> so would it be easy to assume that the contest would be completely
> one-sided?
...Most definitely. In fact, IMHO that's another potential weakness of
using too many heavies. If the defender can scrabble together heavy
weapons on smaller platforms (or even fixed platforms) you are going
to get back to a slugging match which will severely hurt your
heavies... IMHO, better to lose a few light assault forces and
possibly spread some damage than to have your heavies damaged early in
the battle. Once the enemy has lost a few of their
heavies/emplacements, it often is a case of raw firepower picking off
the rest. If your heavies were damaged too much in the advance, you
cant risk them as much during 'clean up'...
> >
> > ...Its all a case of firepower/mass... several small mecha (specially
> > if they are a penalty to-hit) may be able to bring enuf firepower to
> > bear to offset the fact that each one is weak. A swarm of light to
> > medium in particular can not be ignored. And all the while, the big
> > boys are back there lobbing heavy bolts rather than having their
> > armour weakened.
>
> "...may be able to bring enuf firepower to bear..."
> Death by a thousand cuts? I'd rather be sure I could show up with the
> 'biggest and the mostest', and deliver one really big honkin' gash. I do
> agree with the firepower/mass statement though, except that I'd want *more*
> of each than lightweights could deliver.
...your big gun can only hit one target per turn tho. Sure it will
wipe out what its shooting at, but there are still 10 more just like
him waiting... course, if those 10 cant get thru your armour in time,
it doesn't matter much :-)
> I see a Warsaw Pact vs. NATO philosophy here. Sheer numbers vs. High
> Tech/High Capability. Both have their advantages, but I think I like the
> latter. 8)
...But when u have sheer numbers that are fairly capable, they can
make a diff. Lots and lots of light mecha who are armoured enough that
a single shot is not a guaranteed kill will definitely be able to
overwhelm the defenses for at least a few minutes, if the commander
can use those few minutes to his advantage, the loss (in theory) will
be worth it...
...The big key to this strategy is equipping your mecha with weapons
that can reach the enemy within a move or two and begin to pick at
them. You do _not_ want the enemy taking free potshots at the incoming
horde for long... unlike WWI, you do _not_ want to just run across the
field hoping to get to close combat... u have to hurt on your way in
too...
> On further consideration, I'd say that I would prefer to have a lot of
> medium mecha, with lots of rear area support (artillary, air support, etc.)
> Heavy enough slug it out if they had to, but quick enough to live to fight
> another day. A few heavies here and there for levening, and some
> lightweights for scouting/garrison purposes, but I'd rather have a bunch of
> swiss army knife mecha. (oo, I sense a new class name there). Check out
> R.H. Heinlein's Starship Troopers. You've got three types, Scout, Marauder,
> and Command suits. It's the Marauders that do the majority of the work.
...Its always the 'middle class' that holds the line together. They
have enuf maneuverability to get where needed and enuf firepower to at
least put up a good fight. They also don't suffer the specialization
common in the other extremes.
>
> > > Ideally, a force will avoid a direct assault in favor of out manuvering • an
> > > opponent. Not to say it isn't nice to have the firepower to stomp them
> > > flat, though 8).</SOAPBOX>
> >
> > ...Well, even if u can out maneuver them, eventually you will have to
> > assault a position somewhere... its just hoped u can assault the
> > weakest point.
>
> Exactly the point! I agree with you there, but why walk directly down the
> barrels of the defender's gun's when you could roll up their flank or hit
> them in the rear? Frontal assaults went the way of the dodo after WWI.
> They still happen, but usually only after exhausting all other
> possibilities. The costs in material and personel are way to high.
> However, if you have to, you need to go great guns ( hey look! an anime
> title! 8) ) and hit your target as hard as you can.
...But if u bring in heavy guns they will also take heavy losses (or
at least lots of dents). Move lighter units in front to tie up the
enemy guns or better, outflank them on the front and pester them from
the sides. The lighter units will get knocked for a doozy, but the
main guns will not be risked to the 'lucky shot' (don't u hate those
bathroom breaks). And if the defender chooses to focus on the main
guns, all the better, since u can maneuver the smaller mecha to
inflict the most damage.
> Reading over this, I can see I've rambled all over creation, but what the
> heck, it's been slow around here anyway.
> >
> > ...you can go back to ignoring me now...
>
>
> Oh, Stephen. Not ever. 8)
:-) Hey, where's the ad for the Mars Base production facilities for Jain's Guide? :-)
...you can go back to ignoring me now...
wubwub
stephen f roberts
wildlink.com
lugnet #160
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Designation conflict
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| I think we could debate this for a *long* time and not change each other's minds. I will say however, that I can see where you are coming from, Stephen, even if I don't agree. 8) Heh, as for the banner, I'll get right on it. 8) Ben -- Ben Vaughan (...) (25 years ago, 29-Mar-00, to lugnet.build.mecha)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Designation conflict
|
| "Stephen F Roberts" <wubwub@wildlink.com> wrote in message news:6hivdssdkbvjj3r...4ax.com... (...) to (...) most (...) If you are attacking along the same front, where's the distraction? The defender's will be able to see the heavies coming. (...) (25 years ago, 27-Mar-00, to lugnet.build.mecha)
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