Subject:
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Re: Designation conflict
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.build.mecha
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Date:
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Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:08:26 GMT
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Viewed:
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2110 times
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I think we could debate this for a *long* time and not change each other's
minds. I will say however, that I can see where you are coming from,
Stephen, even if I don't agree. 8)
Heh, as for the banner, I'll get right on it.
8)
Ben
--
Ben Vaughan
buster@marsbase.com
http://www.marsbase.com
"Stephen F Roberts" <wubwub@wildlink.com> wrote in message
news:klj1esguv64i4p94539rca4pgaoorg9dgi@4ax.com...
> "Ben Vaughan" <buster@marsbase.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Stephen F Roberts" <wubwub@wildlink.com> wrote in message
> > news:6hivdssdkbvjj3r99j4ica1g052njq596u@4ax.com...
> > > "Ben Vaughan" <buster@marsbase.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > <SOAPBOX>Generally (as I understand it at least), an assault is a • direct
> > > > confrontation, usually from the front. With a prepared defender, • losses
> > to
> > > > the attacking forces can be frighteningly high. With this in mind, • the
> > > > light, fast mecha doesn't seem to be well suited to the role. It may • be
> > > > able to reach the defender's lines, assuming it survives that far, but • most
> > > > likely won't have enough armament to force an exploitable breach in • those
> > > > same lines.
> > >
> > > ...A light assault unit's primary goal is not to exploit or create a
> > > breach, but to engage the enemy and keep them distracted while heavier
> > > units can roll up. Even with light weapons, a small mecha cant just be
> > > ignored when its close, so has to be dealt with.
> >
> > If you are attacking along the same front, where's the distraction? The
> > defender's will be able to see the heavies coming. Granted, the light • mecha
> > will have to be dealt with, but attacking a prepared defense is never a • fun
> > thing to do. Besides, that defender is most likely expecting assault • mecha
> > already, since your side has them already, so, unless you're attacking
> > unprepared or underequipped troops, what kind of odds would you give the
> > lightweights? If the distraction is to come elsewhere, isn't that going • to
> > involve the use of mobility and manuver? That's something the light • units
> > should be used for anyway. An alternative is to use the light mecha to • put
> > in push that will pin the defenders, then roll the heavies in on the • flank,
> > or vise versa. Either way, you use the types in conjunction, rather than • as
> > a replacement for one type or the other.
>
> ...In this discussion, I suppose the term 'assault' should not be used
> to assume a full frontal assault (which, like in WWI, was a general
> stupid thing to do), but instead refer to an assault along the best
> front possible given the conditions.
>
> ...In terms of finding said 'best front', superheavy and even heavy
> mecha just arent capable of moving fast enough to find and exploit a
> weakness. Unless the attacker has total CCCI (command, control,
> communications, intelligence) superiority, likely the defender will be
> able to know where the heavy support is (at least in broad terms) and
> will be able to position forces to counter.
>
> ...Which brings up the 'light/medium' mecha debate. Light assault
> mecha (medium weight, but focused on armour vice armament) would be
> able to 1) find the weak points in the defense and hold them or at
> least distract them or 2) keep the 'front line' defenders
> pinned/occupoed while the heavier units disengage and move to a
> different front.
>
> ...Of course, you have to expect high losses when you have lighter
> mecha moving against any serious defense. But if you have balanced
> your force well, by the time they clear the gnats pestering them, your
> big boys will be there to 'finish the job'. If u just roll in heavy vs
> heavy you have a boring slug match, but if u roll in light first, then
> by the time the defender is ready, he is weakened to the point that
> hopefully only one or two blows will finish it.
>
> > > > Medium and Light mecha would seem to better suited to secondary roles • like
> > > > supporting the following waves that move through the breach and use • their
> > > > speed in the enemies rear. Granted, even a light mecha can have • devastating
> > > > effects on infantry, but given the environment in which assault mecha • would
> > > > even be necessary, it's pretty easy to that the light weights would be
> > > > pretty out-classed in a slugging match.
> >
> > Whoops! that should read "...it's pretty easy to *assume* ..."
> > To expand further, Light mecha would be very effective against infantry, • but
> > what about heavy anti-mech defenses? You've got to expect a defender to
> > have a go at you with everything he's got. Weapons a mecha carries can • be
> > used just as effectively by ground based troops, see:
> > http://www.marsbase.com/archive/rrt/scram.html (granted, it's fictional, • but
> > isn't the basis for this whole discussion?)
> > so would it be easy to assume that the contest would be completely
> > one-sided?
>
> ...Most definitely. In fact, IMHO that's another potential weakness of
> using too many heavies. If the defender can scrabble together heavy
> weapons on smaller platforms (or even fixed platforms) you are going
> to get back to a slugging match which will severely hurt your
> heavies... IMHO, better to lose a few light assault forces and
> possibly spread some damage than to have your heavies damaged early in
> the battle. Once the enemy has lost a few of their
> heavies/emplacements, it often is a case of raw firepower picking off
> the rest. If your heavies were damaged too much in the advance, you
> cant risk them as much during 'clean up'...
>
>
> > >
> > > ...Its all a case of firepower/mass... several small mecha (specially
> > > if they are a penalty to-hit) may be able to bring enuf firepower to
> > > bear to offset the fact that each one is weak. A swarm of light to
> > > medium in particular can not be ignored. And all the while, the big
> > > boys are back there lobbing heavy bolts rather than having their
> > > armour weakened.
> >
> > "...may be able to bring enuf firepower to bear..."
> > Death by a thousand cuts? I'd rather be sure I could show up with the
> > 'biggest and the mostest', and deliver one really big honkin' gash. I do
> > agree with the firepower/mass statement though, except that I'd want • *more*
> > of each than lightweights could deliver.
>
> ...your big gun can only hit one target per turn tho. Sure it will
> wipe out what its shooting at, but there are still 10 more just like
> him waiting... course, if those 10 cant get thru your armour in time,
> it doesn't matter much :-)
>
>
> > I see a Warsaw Pact vs. NATO philosophy here. Sheer numbers vs. High
> > Tech/High Capability. Both have their advantages, but I think I like the
> > latter. 8)
>
> ...But when u have sheer numbers that are fairly capable, they can
> make a diff. Lots and lots of light mecha who are armoured enough that
> a single shot is not a guaranteed kill will definitely be able to
> overwhelm the defenses for at least a few minutes, if the commander
> can use those few minutes to his advantage, the loss (in theory) will
> be worth it...
>
> ...The big key to this strategy is equipping your mecha with weapons
> that can reach the enemy within a move or two and begin to pick at
> them. You do _not_ want the enemy taking free potshots at the incoming
> horde for long... unlike WWI, you do _not_ want to just run across the
> field hoping to get to close combat... u have to hurt on your way in
> too...
>
>
> > On further consideration, I'd say that I would prefer to have a lot of
> > medium mecha, with lots of rear area support (artillary, air support, • etc.)
> > Heavy enough slug it out if they had to, but quick enough to live to • fight
> > another day. A few heavies here and there for levening, and some
> > lightweights for scouting/garrison purposes, but I'd rather have a bunch • of
> > swiss army knife mecha. (oo, I sense a new class name there). Check out
> > R.H. Heinlein's Starship Troopers. You've got three types, Scout, • Marauder,
> > and Command suits. It's the Marauders that do the majority of the work.
>
> ...Its always the 'middle class' that holds the line together. They
> have enuf maneuverability to get where needed and enuf firepower to at
> least put up a good fight. They also don't suffer the specialization
> common in the other extremes.
>
> >
> > > > Ideally, a force will avoid a direct assault in favor of out • manuvering
> > an
> > > > opponent. Not to say it isn't nice to have the firepower to stomp • them
> > > > flat, though 8).</SOAPBOX>
> > >
> > > ...Well, even if u can out maneuver them, eventually you will have to
> > > assault a position somewhere... its just hoped u can assault the
> > > weakest point.
> >
> > Exactly the point! I agree with you there, but why walk directly down • the
> > barrels of the defender's gun's when you could roll up their flank or hit
> > them in the rear? Frontal assaults went the way of the dodo after WWI.
> > They still happen, but usually only after exhausting all other
> > possibilities. The costs in material and personel are way to high.
> > However, if you have to, you need to go great guns ( hey look! an anime
> > title! 8) ) and hit your target as hard as you can.
>
> ...But if u bring in heavy guns they will also take heavy losses (or
> at least lots of dents). Move lighter units in front to tie up the
> enemy guns or better, outflank them on the front and pester them from
> the sides. The lighter units will get knocked for a doozy, but the
> main guns will not be risked to the 'lucky shot' (don't u hate those
> bathroom breaks). And if the defender chooses to focus on the main
> guns, all the better, since u can maneuver the smaller mecha to
> inflict the most damage.
>
> > Reading over this, I can see I've rambled all over creation, but what the
> > heck, it's been slow around here anyway.
> > >
> > > ...you can go back to ignoring me now...
> >
> >
> > Oh, Stephen. Not ever. 8)
>
> :-) Hey, where's the ad for the Mars Base production facilities for Jain's • Guide? :-)
>
>
> ...you can go back to ignoring me now...
>
> wubwub
> stephen f roberts
> wildlink.com
> lugnet #160
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Designation conflict
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| (...) ...In this discussion, I suppose the term 'assault' should not be used to assume a full frontal assault (which, like in WWI, was a general stupid thing to do), but instead refer to an assault along the best front possible given the conditions. (...) (25 years ago, 28-Mar-00, to lugnet.build.mecha)
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