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Mr L F Braun wrote:
> In lugnet.pirates, Jeff Johnston writes:
> > Also, if any of you get the chance to visit the UK, do try to make it to
> > the National
> > Maritime Museum in Greenwich. It's a very short train ride from central
> > London
> > and is well worth it. The _Cutty Sark_, last of the great tea clippers,
> > is also on
> > display nearby.
>
> It's a ship in fine shape--I only saw it at night, but it's
> a very pleasant sight in the moonlight.
The inside has been modified, I fear, to be a museum - there's no way it'll
ever sail again, which is a pity. There's a nice display of figureheads
from
various ships, though.
> > (We didn't make it down to Portsmouth on this trip (too much to see in
> > London
> > itself) but for sail buffs it's well worth the trip - the Royal Naval
> > Museum and
> > Nelson's flagship the _HMS Victory_, as well as the remnants of a ship
> > built
> > by Henry VIII, the _Mary Rose_.)
>
> I didn't realise they'd dragged the whole carcass (such as it was,
> which wasn't much) of the _Mary Rose_ out of its grave! Amazing.
It was quite impressive - and actually, they pulled up almost half the ship!
For those who don't follow current events, the _Mary Rose_ was
commissioned by Henry VIII as a warship, but sank in a storm - somewhere
in the Channel I believe. Half the ship (the port side, if I remember
right)
was buried in the silt of the seabed, which preserved the timbers and even
some of the cargo. (The unstrung longbows they found encased in wax
were still in firing condition!)
Divers found it, and the hull remnant was raised - it's now in a gigantic
hall where they are constantly spraying it with a preservative solution that
is designed to seep into the wood and force the water out - if they just
left
it as it was, it would have disintegrated.
> There's a replica of the _Golden Hinde_ moored in Southwark, by the
> way,
Durn. Wish I had known that - oh well, I think the wife was about sailed
out by the end of the Greenwich trip...
J
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In lugnet.pirates, Jeff Johnston writes:
> Mr L F Braun wrote:
>
> > In lugnet.pirates, Jeff Johnston writes:
> > > Also, if any of you get the chance to visit the UK, do try to make it to
> > > the National
> > > Maritime Museum in Greenwich. It's a very short train ride from central
> > > London
> > > and is well worth it. The _Cutty Sark_, last of the great tea clippers,
> > > is also on
> > > display nearby.
> >
> > It's a ship in fine shape--I only saw it at night, but it's
> > a very pleasant sight in the moonlight.
>
> The inside has been modified, I fear, to be a museum - there's no way it'll
> ever sail again, which is a pity. There's a nice display of figureheads
> from
> various ships, though.
I'll have to see it--real pity about the interior being altered,
though I guess I can't blame them--the tea clippers weren't exactly
passenger liners.
> > I didn't realise they'd dragged the whole carcass (such as it was,
> > which wasn't much) of the _Mary Rose_ out of its grave! Amazing.
>
> It was quite impressive - and actually, they pulled up almost half the ship!
>
> For those who don't follow current events, the _Mary Rose_ was
> commissioned by Henry VIII as a warship, but sank in a storm - somewhere
> in the Channel I believe. Half the ship (the port side, if I remember
> right)
> was buried in the silt of the seabed, which preserved the timbers and even
> some of the cargo. (The unstrung longbows they found encased in wax
> were still in firing condition!)
Heavens! I didn't realise *that* either. All i knew is that
the ship and some remnant of its cargo had been found, nothing
more...now I'll ask for decent book recommendations on that!
(Do you know if one's been published?)
> Divers found it, and the hull remnant was raised - it's now in a gigantic
> hall where they are constantly spraying it with a preservative solution that
>
> is designed to seep into the wood and force the water out - if they just
> left
> it as it was, it would have disintegrated.
Yep, this is exactly the procedure that was really pioneered
with _Wasa_ (or Vasa, if you want the anglicised version). My
gf saw the Wasa museum while in Stockholm, and she really liked
it--and she's not much one for ships ("boats", if that gives you
a clue as to how un-nautical she is). But the theory is sound,
so it's not too much of a shock they decided to repeat it for
the remnants of the _Mary Rose_.
> > There's a replica of the _Golden Hinde_ moored in Southwark, by the
> > way,
>
> Durn. Wish I had known that - oh well, I think the wife was about sailed
> out by the end of the Greenwich trip...
I'm not sure it's still there. Like a lot of replicas (for example,
the _Endeavour_ replica, and the _Mayflower_ and _Half Moon_ replicas)
it moves around. I found it entirely by accident, walking along the
riverline in Southwark (something of a trick because a lot of the
waterfront is behind buildings or otherwise obstructed). Suddenly
I rounded a corner near Southwark Cathedral and *bam* there it was.
It's a tiny thing, too! I'd say it's about the size of a caravan
(mobile home for the North Americans). Stunning that such a little
ship--the dimensions are right even if the exact plan of Drake's
ship can never be known--not only overhauled and captured galleons,
but sailed around the world packed with gold and spices.
best
Lindsay
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Well, I missed the start of this thread, and this is mostly an echo of what
other people are saying....
A few years back I and Jo got to spend the day in Mystic Seaport. very cool
town and very nautical flavor. We also went to Groton but just drove past,
didn't do any seeing there.
I saw the Golden Hind this year as well, outside only. It is an amazing
replica and they've got it in a pretty place for walking. Hard to believe
that tiny thing could defeat so many galleons! That whole area E of the
Southwark bridge is an interesting walk, check out the remnants of
Westminster Castle, the ancient Clink prison, and the shipyard turned into a
mall. Walk a little farther along that side of the river and you can see the
HMS Belfast, a much more modern ship than the Hind... :-) That was back in
July, I was by myself.
I saw the Endeavour when I was in Australia. Fun ship. Hard to believe they
sailed around the world in it. Richard Parsons, David Low and myself have
some snaps of it amid Sydneyside sights.
I managed to make it to Portsmouth with a Mercator friend and toured the
inside of the Victory. Man is it cramped inside for the number of men (and
cannons!) it carried. The Warrior looked cool from the outside but we didn't
have time to go inside. I can see why Lindsay liked it though. I was taken
with the modern ships around us, and with the coastal monitor. Didn't see
the Mary Rose but heard it is very cool to see. I have some snaps of tiny
little naval railway cars used dockside for moving stores around and stuff.
Lindsay and I managed to tour the Maritime museum, I can't speak highly
enough of that, it's great. I liked all the ship models, and the two models
of shipyards. (although I'm not sure but what I didn't like the London
Transport museum better, being a train head).
I walk past the Cutty Sark every day on my way to work while at this client
(this is my 7th week with them now, spaced out over 3 trips and a flyback in
the middle of one trip) just before I get on the DLR. The Cutty Sark is MUCH
bigger than the Victory or the Hind, and may be a bit bigger than the
Warrior but I am not sure. Very pretty ship, lots of sail area to be had on
it when fully rigged. The Gypsy Moth racing sloop across the trans Thames
pedestrian tunnel entrance is also worth a see.
Speaking of unusual ships, right outside my window right now is a catamaran
with fixed wing sails... they are mounted vertically and pivot based on wind
direction. It is to be used for a circumglobal trip that is to set out soon.
(it's docked among all the Sea Scout boats and small ships, Sea Scouts must
be a UK phenom, we don't have these in the US)
Net net, if you like pirates, visit a nautical museum, wherever you may
be!!! well worth the time.
++Lar
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Larry Pieniazek wrote in message ...
> I saw the Endeavour when I was in Australia. Fun ship. Hard to believe they
> sailed around the world in it. Richard Parsons, David Low and myself have
> some snaps of it amid Sydneyside sights.
I took pics while it was here too... the funniest one being when she was
tied up to one of the gas barges in Vancouver Harbour, taking on fuel. Talk
about an anachronism!
> (it's docked among all the Sea Scout boats and small ships, Sea Scouts must
> be a UK phenom, we don't have these in the US)
Sea scouts are in Canada too... my SO was one as a youth, and they went on
some pretty major trips up and down the coast in open boats (oar and sail).
He also fell off a cliff during one trip, which is a whole nother story.
Kevin
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Mr L F Braun wrote in message ...
> In lugnet.pirates, Jeff Johnston writes:
> > For those who don't follow current events, the _Mary Rose_ was
> > commissioned by Henry VIII as a warship, but sank in a storm - somewhere
> > in the Channel I believe. Half the ship (the port side, if I remember
> > right)
> > was buried in the silt of the seabed, which preserved the timbers and even
> > some of the cargo. (The unstrung longbows they found encased in wax
> > were still in firing condition!)
>
> Heavens! I didn't realise *that* either. All i knew is that
> the ship and some remnant of its cargo had been found, nothing
> more...now I'll ask for decent book recommendations on that!
> (Do you know if one's been published?)
OK, found my class notes from an SCA class on the Mary Rose last year...
Built about 1511, 32m long (110 feet), 13m from keel to top of stern castle,
refitted in 1527, laid up until another refit in 1536. Sank July 1545 in the
Solent (between Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight). Quote from the class
notes:
"As the Mary Rose raised her sails and began moving towards the retreating
galleys a wind caught her sails and she began to list. While this may be
proper technique for a racing yacht it does not work for a fighting ship
with 2 gun decks and 4 archery decks in the forecastle. As she tipped water
began pouring into the open gunports and she tipped more. Men and equipment
on the upper decks began sliding adding both to the shift in weight and more
confusion for the struggling mariners as they tried to save the ship. Below
unsecured guns began to shift in position. Within minutes all that was left
of the Mary Rose was a spot marked by her masts sticking out of the water to
mark her resting-place. Out of her total complement of 600 to 700 men a mere
30 or so survived. The remainder were trapped below decks or held secure by
the anti-boarding nets as the ship went down."
Recovery attempts were made in the same year but they could only get some of
the guns up: her keel was embedded 6 feet into hard clay and the
would-be-recoveries couldn't get lines under her. In 1836 the Deane brothers
found the wreck and brought up 16 guns, longbows, pottery, etc etc.
Bibliography:
The Mary Rose (Margaret Rule, 1982)
The Story of the Mary Rose (Ernie Bradford, 1982)
King Henry VIII's Mary Rose (Alexander McKee, 1973)
and a websites:
http://www.maryrose.org
Hope that's useful!
Kevin
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In lugnet.pirates, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> (it's docked among all the Sea Scout boats and small ships, Sea Scouts must
> be a UK phenom, we don't have these in the US)
They used to have their own boat here in Southern California - a friend of
mine sailed on it a number of times. Whether they still do or not, I don't
know, but I believe they are littered along the coastline.
Bruce
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In lugnet.pirates, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> In lugnet.pirates, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > (it's docked among all the Sea Scout boats and small ships, Sea Scouts must
> > be a UK phenom, we don't have these in the US)
> They used to have their own boat here in Southern California - a friend of
> mine sailed on it a number of times. Whether they still do or not, I don't
> know, but I believe they are littered along the coastline.
Lazy me, there's a fair bit of info out there... hmm. Might be an
interesting model idea in there!
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/activity/seascout/what.htm
Maybe even a Brikwars scenario? Sea Scouts take on latter day pirates?
++Lar
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On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Kevin Wilson (<G4sqoA.3K6@lugnet.com>) wrote at
17:20:54
> "As the Mary Rose raised her sails and began moving towards the retreating
> galleys a wind caught her sails and she began to list. While this may be
> proper technique for a racing yacht it does not work for a fighting ship
> with 2 gun decks and 4 archery decks in the forecastle. As she tipped water
> began pouring into the open gunports and she tipped more. Men and equipment
> on the upper decks began sliding adding both to the shift in weight and more
> confusion for the struggling mariners as they tried to save the ship. Below
> unsecured guns began to shift in position. Within minutes all that was left
> of the Mary Rose was a spot marked by her masts sticking out of the water to
> mark her resting-place. Out of her total complement of 600 to 700 men a mere
> 30 or so survived. The remainder were trapped below decks or held secure by
> the anti-boarding nets as the ship went down."
There was a programme about this on Channel 4 recently, which went to
the length of making a 1:20 model of the ship, to see if the above
theory could be proven.
The sequence of events (as far as I remember) was thus:
The ship was advancing on the enemy with all guns run out, and all
soldiers at their stations. This included an extra 100-200 men, who were
all stationed in the top of the fore- & sterncastles.
One broadside was fired at the opposition, and the ship began to come
about to fire the guns on the other side. This was the point at which it
all went horribly wrong.
As the ship turned, it listed, and the unfortunate sequence of events
Kevin describes above came to pass.
The testing was undertaken in a large tank, and was filmed from
underneath. It was really poignant to watch the ship start to turn,
list, then capsize & sink, to be caught twenty feet down by a diver.
One misconception that I had been under was that the Mary Rose was a new
ship. In fact, she was thirty years old, but had just had a major refit
to install the latest high-tech (heavy) cannons...
--
Tony Priestman
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In lugnet.pirates, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> Maybe even a Brikwars scenario? Sea Scouts take on latter day pirates?
>
> ++Lar
Timmies vs. Pirates! Wooohooo! First dibs on the pyrates!
Bruce
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In lugnet.pirates, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> In lugnet.pirates, Larry Pieniazek writes:
>
>
> > Maybe even a Brikwars scenario? Sea Scouts take on latter day pirates?
> >
> > ++Lar
>
>
> Timmies vs. Pirates! Wooohooo! First dibs on the pyrates!
No, you need guys with a big S on their torso, not a big T.
Sea *S*couts not Sea Touts.
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In lugnet.pirates, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.pirates, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> > In lugnet.pirates, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> >
> >
> > > Maybe even a Brikwars scenario? Sea Scouts take on latter day pirates?
> > >
> > > ++Lar
> >
> >
> > Timmies vs. Pirates! Wooohooo! First dibs on the pyrates!
>
> No, you need guys with a big S on their torso, not a big T.
>
> Sea *S*couts not Sea Touts.
Sea Trouts? I thought they were freshwater. I've got other fish to fry.
Timmies will do in any case: it's a truism that Boy Scouts always have those
little axes with them, those just become boarding axes. :-)
Bruce
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In lugnet.pirates, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> In lugnet.pirates, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.pirates, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> > > Timmies vs. Pirates! Wooohooo! First dibs on the pyrates!
> >
> > No, you need guys with a big S on their torso, not a big T.
> >
> > Sea *S*couts not Sea Touts.
>
> Sea Trouts? I thought they were freshwater. I've got other fish to fry.
> Timmies will do in any case: it's a truism that Boy Scouts always have those
> little axes with them, those just become boarding axes. :-)
No, no, no...sea *Touts*. You know, they sell illegal tickets,
secondhand merchandise, all of that. They'd probably sell you a
defective hull sealant, or a cracked peg leg.
This tweedehands stuff aside, I'm quite in favour of Timmes Vs.
Anyone. However, I no longer have enough Timmies to do anything
remotely entertaining with them. I may have to use stripe-shirt
swabbies...
best
Lindsay
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In lugnet.pirates, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.pirates, Jeff Johnston writes:
> > Mr L F Braun wrote:
> >
> > > In lugnet.pirates, Jeff Johnston writes: • .
> I'm not sure it's still there. Like a lot of replicas (for example,
> the _Endeavour_ replica, and the _Mayflower_ and _Half Moon_ replicas)
> it moves around. I found it entirely by accident, walking along the
> riverline in Southwark (something of a trick because a lot of the
> waterfront is behind buildings or otherwise obstructed). Suddenly
> I rounded a corner near Southwark Cathedral and *bam* there it was.
> It's a tiny thing, too! I'd say it's about the size of a caravan
> (mobile home for the North Americans). Stunning that such a little
> ship--the dimensions are right even if the exact plan of Drake's
> ship can never be known--not only overhauled and captured galleons,
> but sailed around the world packed with gold and spices.
At the Corpus Christ, TX Natural History Museum, replicas of the Nina, Pinta,
and Santa Maria are being built by craftsmen using, IIRC, essentially the same
building techniques as were employed on the originals. It is a fascinating
display, and what really struck me was the compact size of the vessels. I grew
up in a mobile home, and I can verify that these ships were *much* smaller than
a mobile home (we usually called the really small rigs "travel trailers" - these
might have been as long as a decent travel trailer.) Anyway, the hardihood that
must have been required for seafaring in such vessels is really incredible.
james
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In lugnet.pirates, James Simpson writes:
> At the Corpus Christ, TX Natural History Museum, replicas of the Nina, Pinta,
> and Santa Maria are being built by craftsmen using, IIRC, essentially the same
> building techniques as were employed on the originals. It is a fascinating
> display, and what really struck me was the compact size of the vessels. I grew
> up in a mobile home, and I can verify that these ships were *much* smaller than
> a mobile home (we usually called the really small rigs "travel trailers" - these
> might have been as long as a decent travel trailer.) Anyway, the hardihood that
> must have been required for seafaring in such vessels is really incredible.
Do you know where any .jpgs are located? I'd love to see them
cobbling together some 15th-C. ships. I do know there are a few
replicas of Columbus's ships already floating around out there
(quite literally!), so I wonder if these will vary from those
at all...
...The Santa Maria was by far the largest of the ships, and I've
only ever seen pictures of the Niña, but MAN that was tiny.
best
Lindsay
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In lugnet.pirates, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> Do you know where any .jpgs are located? I'd love to see them
> cobbling together some 15th-C. ships. I do know there are a few
> replicas of Columbus's ships already floating around out there
> (quite literally!), so I wonder if these will vary from those
> at all...
>
> ...The Santa Maria was by far the largest of the ships, and I've
> only ever seen pictures of the Niña, but MAN that was tiny.
Sorry it took me so long to respond (I've been away from the net for about a
week). Here are a few links:
I was suprised to have little luck finding much on the web. I've enclosed 3
articles from the Corpus Christi Caller Times - it seems that the city has had
trouble maintaing the ships, and is now looking for another home for them.
http://www.caller.com/attract/colum.htm
http://www.caller.com/1999/october/19/today/business/1785.html
http://www.caller.com/2000/april/25/today/editoria/5854.html
Here is a link regarding the Nina which isn't related to the Corpus Christi
exhibit:
http://www.thenina.com/index.html
james
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