Subject:
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Re: Impeachment
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:20:02 GMT
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Reply-To:
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beaker@&spamcake&pobox.com
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Viewed:
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281 times
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Also sprach John Cromer:
: I would not say "testimony under oath must be truthful" is a throw-away
: issue. It is not, however, in my opinion, the cornerstone that underpins
: our legal system. I am convinced that people lie under oath every day in
: practically every court in this land. I personally have been on
: four different juries. People lied under oath, in my opinion, in
: each of those trials. They do it for a variety of reasons and they
: are not put in jail, they are not fined, they don't go to trial for it
: and they don't lose their jobs for it. The justice system in the U.S.
: does not collapse. It is the job of the jury to follow the instructions
: of the court and in so doing, decide who lied and who did not. Like it
: or not, what goes on in a courtroom in the U.S. is not about some
: absolute truth, it is about a jury following court instructions, and
: sometimes, as you point out, murderers have gone to the gas chamber.
: They have also walked free. The system did not collapse.
Heh:) I got this same argument on the other discussion group I posted
this to. I think my error was in being somewhat dramatic about it. I
am not so naive as to believe that people do not regularly lie under
oath. I'm aware that it is routine. But my point goes to the
*credibiltiy* of the justice system: without that assumption the system
loses the just authority it has to deprive people of their rights. This
point is more philosophical than it is tangible.
But we do prosecute for perjury. The legal standard is quite high. We
do not prosecute someone for perjury if the jury disagreed with his
testimony; we only prosecute when a person is caught in an obvious lie,
and generally only then if the person refuses to admit the truth; if
they stick to the lie. We do this in extreme and obvious cases because
if the threat were not there, people would feel free to subvert the
process at their whim. Bill Clinton was caught in such a lie. He was
given an opportunity to recant, and chose not to. Notably, he was
impeached for perjury based on that second lie, not the first one in the
Paula Jones case. Bill Clinton has done something that you or I would
very likely go to jail for. For that matter, before he was even
questioned he had done something that any high school principal would
losre his job for, although that's a political reality rather than a
legal one and probably not terribly relevant.`
I do see your point. I think we actually agree on everything except
whether the crime meets the standard of 'high crimes and misdemeanors'
... I respect your opinion, and note your concern for the future of the
presidency, but I cannot get around my personal belief that a public
official believing he is above the law constitutes a high crime in and
of itself. It is an abuse of public trust and undermines the notion
that our elected officials are public servants. Whether it's Bill
Clinton lying on the stand or a traffic cop turning on his lights to run
a traffic light he doesn't want to wait for, it's an abuse of a trust
that makes our government rather unique and precious.
/ _ _ / _ _ Don't like it? Direct all flames to
()(-(//((-/ miotch@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
============= Jim Baker -- Weather Weasel Extraordinaire ==============
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Impeachment
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| What is actually meant by "High crimes and misdemeanors"? Is it a grandiose crime that is considered a felony? Or is it a crime by an official in a high office ... Like the President? Should there be two sets of laws? You or I would be prosecuted (...) (26 years ago, 31-Dec-98, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Impeachment
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| Well, Jim, I have read your long post regarding the impeachment. I have read it several times. It is well-reasoned and argued. Still, I disagree. Let me explain, and I hope to do it without the name- calling, labeling and slander that seems to (...) (26 years ago, 30-Dec-98, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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