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Hi all, There is a recurring notion, in some debates here and in conversations in real life, about justice that concerns me. It seems that there are many people who think that it is "just" for someone who does something bad to have something bad (...) (22 years ago, 18-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Well, speaking only for myself, I am more interested in restitutional justice -- which has little to do with our current conception of justice. When things can be made right through some monetary or labour means, I think we should force the (...) (22 years ago, 18-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Well, you've tempted me out of my shell again... I just came up with some ideas which may explain our issues with justice, especially in these most difficult cases. While I didn't read the specific case at hand, from a quick visit to the (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) When a child does something antisocial (aka "wrong") many parents/authorities have the first impulse to punish the kid. Current thinking in child development and parenting philosophy says (and I'm pretty sure I agree) that when a punishment is (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) As a point of clarification, are you speculating that recidivism might result from confinement-based punishment because such punishment is separate from actual guilt-consequences of the committed crime? (...) Escaping from what? I think that (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Oops. That should have read "execution of the mentally retarded." Dave! (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Good! (...) It seems like that's part of it but there is a deeper desire for revenge that doesn't have a rational basis. I worry that we use the rational need for safety to mask our desire for retribution. (...) It's interesting that you mixed (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) I am leery of according mere confinement the status of unreasonable or even harsh punishment for basic violent common law crimes (armed theft, assult, rape, murder, etc). The purpose of confinement for such violent offenders, absent mental (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Yes. But I think it's less of a stretch to imagine that recidivism is caused by some unspecified factor(s) of incarceration. In fact, I think it's almost certain that some such link exists. So I guess I'm speculating more broadly than the (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Ah! Well, I'd definitely agree that the average prison environment is hardly conducive to the creation of productive members of society. Without naming a specific cause, I'd say that incarceration certainly contributes to the perpetuation of a (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Would you contend that the abrogation of guilt caused by punishment has nothing to do with recidivism or that such effect is nonexistant? It kind of feels like you wanted to pin me to that specific stance so you could play whack-a-mole with (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Actually, I was simply trying to agree and to provide one point of common thinking. Sorry if it came off as a challenge. (...) Another good point! I suppose that, technically, the *life* of the murder victim isn't the sole basis for (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) The need for revenge is definitely a problem. I think we really need to change our justice system so that one of the purposes of the system is to ask the question: "Are we doing this primarily for the purpose of revenge?" (...) I think more (...) (22 years ago, 20-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) I'd say that "an individual that is absolutely willing to hurt others in permanent ways to achieve their short term ends" is someone who has a mental illness. But containment with psychiatric help available until the person demonstrates they (...) (22 years ago, 20-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) I'm not uncomfortable with the thought that some people are worth more than others. If I'm at fault in an accident and total someone's junky car and you total a brand new Mercedes in a similar situation, isn't it reasonable that you have to (...) (22 years ago, 20-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) I think you are looking at the idea of equality with a slightly clouded lens... We are equal under the law, and therefore due equal protection and liability under the law. We are NOT actually all equal in reality. The life of a person has (...) (22 years ago, 20-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Gee, that means that many highly placed politicians may be mentally ill! =) -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 20-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) lens... I've been thinking about this for quite a while and I think that either I misunderstand your meaning, or you're wrong. The notion of equality under law, I think, is somewhat slippery. Further, it seems some times (this included) that (...) (22 years ago, 2-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Well, that's a fault of the kind of torts we currently allow. At the same time the destruction of what exists at the time of the loss is what is being protected. It's not that big a leap to assert that someone that has been earning "X" dollars (...) (22 years ago, 2-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Setting aside the loss of income issue (because I'm still not sure and don't have anything insightful to say), what does "loss of society" mean? (...) Let's imagine that a kid is part of a rich family until he's ten (way old enough to have (...) (22 years ago, 3-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Criminal Justice
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(...) Loss of that person's company; the loss of the relationship with that person. (...) Well, I'm not sure that a child does either -- certainly not all of it. But there could be other claimants, like a spouse. I think earlier in the thread we (...) (22 years ago, 3-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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