Subject:
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Re: Criminal Justice
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:02:09 GMT
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Viewed:
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424 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
>
> > > As a point of clarification, are you speculating that recidivism might
> > > result from confinement-based punishment because such punishment is separate
> > > from actual guilt-consequences of the committed crime?
> >
> > Yes. But I think it's less of a stretch to imagine that recidivism is caused
> > by some unspecified factor(s) of incarceration. In fact, I think it's almost
> > certain that some such link exists. So I guess I'm speculating more broadly
> > than the specific "because" that you noted, but would include that.
>
> Ah! Well, I'd definitely agree that the average prison environment is
> hardly conducive to the creation of productive members of society. Without
> naming a specific cause, I'd say that incarceration certainly contributes to
> the perpetuation of a criminal mindset.
Would you contend that the abrogation of guilt caused by punishment has nothing
to do with recidivism or that such effect is nonexistant? It kind of feels
like you wanted to pin me to that specific stance so you could play
whack-a-mole with me, and if so, I'd be keen to hear why you specifically think
that's impossible.
> > In the coursest form, there could exist some kind of a temporary slavery • until
> > the debt is paid. That (or preferably something more mild/regulated) would
> > negate the ability of the convicted to avoid the debt burden in the ways that
> > you suggested.
>
> Interesting. I guess the main thing that gives me pause about such a
> compensatory system is a case like murder, when no length of slavery can
> truly compensate the victim's family. Granted, the execution or lifelong
> incarceration doesn't give true compensation either. Yikes, what a topic!
Yeah, it's thorny. But I think you can easily evaluate the fiscal value of the
murder victim (makeing some wild-ass guesses along the way) and start there.
How do courts calculate awards for emotional trauma now?
And actually, reading your pause above shows me a hole in the system. What if
the victim has no family? Is murdering one person cheaper than another? Off
hand that sounds icky, but is it actually bad? I guess I think it is!
Otherwise, we'd have a system that _officially_ values the lives of rich people
over the lives of the poor.
But I bet we could work around that by assuming things like the amount it takes
to raise kids, care for a spouse, etc.
> I apologize for that propagandist term and withdraw it. Instead I'll
> extend the notion to "those who default on contractually obligated debt." I
> don't have any hard numbers, but in my field of employment I see a quite
> large number of levies applied to accounts whose owners have defaulted on
> payments, and those account owners contest the levies tooth-and-nail.
> Admittedly these are anecdotal examples in the grand scheme, but I think
> they provide a good indication that some people are willing to avoid
> appropriate payment when possible.
I'm not claiming that no one could reasonably be called a deadbeat dad. But I
personally know three men who have been denied full paternal privilege
inappropriately and who fund the life of leisure of their ex wife. I also know
more people who have a good and reasonably amicable deal established, but I
don't know any women who're getting the shaft (by the custody system) in the
same way that men commonly do. And yes, I acknowledge that my annecdotes
aren't data either, but just like yours, do establish some level of occurance.
> > > Gosh gosh gosh, I don't know. How great is society's responsibility to
> > > care for the dangerously mentally ill, and to what extent and for how long?
> >
> > And does it matter if you can track a cause of the mental illness? Does it
> > matter if it results from child abuse or from unfortunate brain chemistry?
>
> I think that's the essence of the dilemma! And how can society
> distinguish "true" mental trauma from false? Especially when some (many?)
> people suffer trauma without developing criminal mental illness later in
> life? Must reflect on this further...
And, how does the societal responsibility/role differ depending on the
criminality of the mental illness? Do we as a group owe a mentally ill person
less merely because they are not criminally insane? I suppose I shouldn't even
be asking this as a pseudo-libertarian, but I guess that's why I'm calling
myself a socialist-libertarian.
> > I'd rather see the criminally insane studied humanely and cryonically
> > suspended than put down. We could then fix them when that becomes possible.
>
> Interesting and arguably more humane than execution. But I wonder if such
> "fixing" could be construed as the "execution" of the criminal and the
> creation of a whole new person. Would that be preferable? I suppose that
> crimnally insane people who are truly repentant (but who can't stop
> themselves) might welcome such an option, but what of those who don't?
Well, what makes a person a person, or a specific person a specific person? If
you administered a treatment to me that made me enjoy tinkertoys instead of
LEGO, would I be a different person? I'd say only slightly. I've made much
more dramatic personal changes in the natural course of my life.
Anyway, I think that society does have the "right" to protect itself. Maybe
the specific hypothetical unrepentant insane criminal could opt for one of
several treatments including lifelong incarceration.
Chris
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Criminal Justice
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| (...) Actually, I was simply trying to agree and to provide one point of common thinking. Sorry if it came off as a challenge. (...) Another good point! I suppose that, technically, the *life* of the murder victim isn't the sole basis for (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Criminal Justice
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| (...) I'm not uncomfortable with the thought that some people are worth more than others. If I'm at fault in an accident and total someone's junky car and you total a brand new Mercedes in a similar situation, isn't it reasonable that you have to (...) (22 years ago, 20-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Criminal Justice
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| (...) I think you are looking at the idea of equality with a slightly clouded lens... We are equal under the law, and therefore due equal protection and liability under the law. We are NOT actually all equal in reality. The life of a person has (...) (22 years ago, 20-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Criminal Justice
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| (...) Ah! Well, I'd definitely agree that the average prison environment is hardly conducive to the creation of productive members of society. Without naming a specific cause, I'd say that incarceration certainly contributes to the perpetuation of a (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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