Subject:
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Re: Conspiracy theories
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:45:41 GMT
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Viewed:
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408 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Grubber writes:
> > What i would like to know is:
> >
> > 1- what really happened to the flight over pennsylvania
>
> That's one of the million dollar questions, and we may have to content
> ourselves with "the passengers appear to have disrupted the hijackers' plan
> which then resulted in the crash of the plane." It doesn't seem likely that
> we'll ever have a perfect picture of what went on.
Very True. I do think it was dealt with in the most unfortunate means though
(shot down)- of course i have no proof, but lack of evidence rarely stops the
big media, so why should i worry? ;-P
> > 2- what happened to the 5th plane that was initially reported to have been
> > highjacked
>
> My understanding is that this was reported in error. It seems clear that
> it wasn't hijacked and didn't crash, since some news agency or some
> eyewitness or some airline company would have mentioned the loss of a whole
> plane if it had really happened.
Good point. I guess the conspiracy stuff can get a bit too engrossing at
times.
> > 3- what happened with the car bomb that was reported to have exploded outside
> > the state department in washington
>
> This was likewise reported in error, or at any rate no such explosion
> occurred. Again, given the hyper-sensitized atmosphere following the plane
> crashes, how likely does it seem that no civilian would report a car
> explosion? Surely you don't believe that the government is capable of
> pre-emptively shushing every possible witness?
I have a pretty low opinion of government in general, so silencing witnesses,
to me, is not beyond them. Also, there are books published annually that deal
with under-reported news stories, so hey, anythings possible.
> > #2 and #3 were initially reported, then just disappeared from news reports. I
> > want to know why.
>
> I agree; even though it's almost certain that they were reported in error,
> a more visible statement of the error would have been welcome and appropriate.
Damned right. I doubt CNN will ever cough up on that though. It would wreck
their already pitful reputation as being a objective news broadcaster. As it
is, they, along with the other megamedia have basically been parroting the
government policy. And they say Al-Jazeera is bad.
> > Things i have heard (rumours):
> > - the pennsylvania flight *was* shot down, but the hero story was created to
> > soothe the nation. I would like to know more about the people who allegedly
> > recieved phone calls from the heros and their connections to the government
> > etc.
>
> That plane crashed relatively near to my area (I'm in Pittsburgh) and
> there was considerable news coverage within an hour at the site. The few
> (as in, less than three) other planes reported in the area have been
> accounted for by their pilots. I don't have specific links on them at the
> moment, but I'll track them down if you're desperate.
Not especially. Thanks for the offer though.
> > - The 5th plane (a Denver to New York flight) was shot down, over Colorado, • en
> > route to the Hoover Dam, its intended target.
>
> It seems impossible that a plane of any size would have crashed in the
> continental US without some word about it making the news. Perhaps it was
> vaporized by one of the Clinton-Era Death Satellites.
Wouldn't that be reagan-bush era satellites? And i think that if the US
government and intelligence community doesn't want news getting out about
something- it doesn't get out. Notice the pentagon purchasing all the
satellite rights over afghanistan? Whats going on there that they don't want
seen?
> > There are dark deeds being done constantly, 'for our own good' and 'in the
> > nations interest'... Things have to change.
>
> Well, the particular players have changed, as have the particular pork
> projects, but this sort of abuse (and, perhaps more important, perceived
> malfeasance) has been going on since before the birth of formal government.
> Maybe things have to change, but they haven't yet in all of recorded history.
They say politics is the second oldest profession- i have come to realize that
it bears more than a passing resemblance to the first. - i think it was mark
twain that said that.
> > I keep thinking that this whole situation reminds me of the graphic Novel • 'The
> > Watchmen' by Alan Moore. If you haven't read it, do so, if you have, read it
> > again. If these people were sacrificed for a better world, maybe their • deaths
> > weren't meaningless, but i think they died so some people (the rich) would • get
> > a better world.
>
> It seems that you've concluded that there was direct US Gov't involvement
> in either the planning or execution of the hijacking plot--do I misread you?
Hmmm. I am not sure. I don't honestly know. I don't want to believe it, but
given things in the past, its hard not to at least consider it... Its sad that
as a young person, i am more likely to distrust the government (of another
country) and be suspicious of everything they do and its potential imperial
effects, than to actually have faith in them to do the right thing.
> At any rate, there's a big difference between teleporting a squid into New
> York and the implementation of questionable foreign policy.
Thats only because they can't teleport the squid... yet... ;-P
As for foreign policy, its a lot more than questionable, its in many cases
downright nasty. Destabilization, arms sales, drug running, etc. If the
powers that be would just realize that the rest of the world doesn't want to be
american, wear levis and drink pepsi, and actually realize that many americans
even feel taht way, america and americans wouldn't be reviled in so many
countries.
The big problem is capitalism and how it has subverted democracy. Without an
increasing market, capitalism stalls, thus, the market has to be constantly
enlarged- by adding places like india and china- over 2 billion served. Never
mind taht it causes problems, just get out there and sell sell sell. I fear
that Sept 11th is only the beginning. What scares me too is that the events
are not being put into a context by the mainstream media. All they seem to
care about is that somebody's ass needed kicking and Afghanistan drew the short
straw. (not that the taliban are 'good', but rather, why did it take so long
to deal with them in the first place, ditto with bin laden and co). I fully
expect hinm to get away and live to terrorize another day. A few thousand
people now and then is a small price to pay for a growing economy it seems.
Same with hussein- they will go after him next, but they won't get him. they
need an enemy to define themselves and this war, or else public support for teh
war will falter- thats what the cia is good at- creating boogeymen to fight.
They buggered up in Viet Nam (not the only ones) and thus the war ended because
the people weren't behind it.
> A fine graphic novel, even if Moore sometimes gets caught up in Being Alan
> Moore The Write. And I can't stand Dave Gibbons' art in any publication
> I've seen to date.
I like the art- its the colours i can't stand in that book. It really needs
digital recolouring or something.
> > Sorry for the rant. I just watched fight club. Best movie ever made.
>
> I must have missed that one, but it's a shame that Brad Pitt and Ed Norton
> were in such a terrible film by the same name.
What! How can you say that? It was awesome- it addressed the pointless
materialism that is slowly eating us alive and how our society is creating
barriers between individuals and how few of us (especially among the young) are
able or willing to reach out to create significant relationships with other
people. That the whole reason for the club- it is an outlet for
frustration and a bonding experience at the same time. It was quite
fascinating as a modern jekyll and hyde story. Emile Durheim called it
'anomie'- its the sense of utter aloneness that many feel in urban societies
because bonds of community are highly weakened.
Fight Club was great! Few movies lately have hit the nail so precisely-
american beauty did too.
john
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Conspiracy theories
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| (...) That honestly doesn't sound suspicious to me, since, had the US Gov't *not* purchased the exclusive rights, then the Taliban could easily have watched US troop movements; there's no reasonable way to conclude (but *speculation* is fair game) (...) (23 years ago, 23-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Conspiracy theories
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| (...) That's one of the million dollar questions, and we may have to content ourselves with "the passengers appear to have disrupted the hijackers' plan which then resulted in the crash of the plane." It doesn't seem likely that we'll ever have a (...) (23 years ago, 21-Nov-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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