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Paul S. D'Urbano wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters writes:
> > When we used three motors to power two engines and five rail cars at our
> > recent RichLug train show, they seemed underpowered and barely made it
> > around the 45 degree curves. One motor couldn't power an engine and two rail
> > cars around our carefully leveled oval.
> Man, every story I hear gets me more depressed! I don't own any ATSF stuff
> yet. I decided to wait for the cars to come out and an LD "kit" offer since
> my LEGO budget is limited. I now finally have the funds set aside and was
> so psyched to see a full train in action. I was about to order when I saw
> Cary Clark's thread start. Now I'm not sure if I should order now, or wait
> to see if there's some quality control problem with the wheel sets that LD
> will fix (and hopefully announce).
My observation :
Most LEGO engines are simply too light! The motor has more power, but it
can't be transferred onto the track because of the lack of grip.
With my 4551 Crocodiles and my MOC DB211 I added some weight bricks, as
found in old 12v trains and some Technic sets, and the traction has
improved a lot. Also trains run smoother and with less waggling around
on the track. http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=anvil for
some details on this. The weight brick is still available in the US from
Pitsco Dacta IIRC.
Still need to get my Santa Fe cars but so far my DB 211 has been pulling
trains of 5-6 of the old 12v 7740 coaches (which run heavier than 9v
cars) through curves and points.
> > We pondered a possible B-Unit kit from LEGO. I think I will wait for the kit
> > for another year before I resort to building one from one engine and
> > Bricklink parts.
> I've pondered buying an extra engine and doing the A + A = B approach but
> $80 for a B-Unit to go with a $40 A-Unit seems too painful. I know the left
> over parts can be used for other things, but my MOC skills aren't too great.
Going Bricklink is definately cheaper. I'd say you'd pay around $15-20
for parts needed, and can make $10-15 for the parts you have left
(assuming you already have an A-unit, and plan to make a B-unit with two
LEGO train motors) The windows and the grey wheels are still going for
good prices, way more than the roof and side pieces you'd need.
> > I'm not surprised that I'm the first person to respond to your post. Those
> > of us who are not "experts" are usually ignored when we post in this venue.
> This depresses me, too. This was my first LUGNET post and I believed the
> hype that this would be "the friendliest place on the Internet." Does that
> not apply to lugnet.trains?
So many hours, so little time is my excuse in this...
I try to follow every posting that is made in groups I check, but unless
the title captures my interest I'm likely to skip it.
--
Jan-Albert "Anvil" van Ree | http://www.vanree.net/~javanree/
VanReeDotNet IT Solutions | http://www.vanree.net
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In lugnet.trains, Jan-Albert van Ree writes:
> My observation :
> Most LEGO engines are simply too light! The motor has more power, but it
> can't be transferred onto the track because of the lack of grip.
I am thinking that there is a FAQ entry in here somewhere on weight. I am
pressed for time but
- engines benefit from more weight, up to a point... additional weight
(especially over the drivers) gives additional traction/adhesion. The 4561
is a canonical (counter) example of this, it is so light it can't hardly
move itself much less very many cars. Rubber helps but is not a panacea,
just an aid.
- train cars, surprisingly, ALSO benefit from more weight. At least, if you
have very very light cars in long trains you cannot back up at all, you will
derail something, and further, you cannot go around corners without
derailments. While lots and lots of weight is not good, you do want enough
weight on each car that it adheres to the track reliably.
What the best weights are is not clear to me. This info has been calculated
for other gauges like HO and N.
> > > I'm not surprised that I'm the first person to respond to your post. Those
> > > of us who are not "experts" are usually ignored when we post in this venue.
>
> > This depresses me, too. This was my first LUGNET post and I believed the
> > hype that this would be "the friendliest place on the Internet." Does that
> > not apply to lugnet.trains?
>
> So many hours, so little time is my excuse in this...
> I try to follow every posting that is made in groups I check, but unless
> the title captures my interest I'm likely to skip it.
That's me too. I do think it's good to get engaged. Just don't give up after
just one post. Participate in ongoing discussions too. As Ben said, the
hobby has grown and it's not just a single tightly knit circle with everyone
in it any more.
But all contributions are valuable. This is a great topic... it's just that,
like Ben, I've said my piece about quality etc and don't want to repeat
myself too much.
At any rate welcome to lugnet.trains, Paul and other new readers!
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> - engines benefit from more weight, up to a point... additional weight
> (especially over the drivers) gives additional traction/adhesion. The 4561
> is a canonical (counter) example of this, it is so light it can't hardly
> move itself much less very many cars. Rubber helps but is not a panacea,
> just an aid.
Quite right. This is why the model scales have brass flywheels on top of
the motors. As for the rubber, we need actual traction tires (with treads)
on the wheels, not just wrapped rubber bands.
> What the best weights are is not clear to me. This info has been calculated
> for other gauges like HO and N.
You can find the NMRA RPs for weight here:
http://www.nmra.org/standards/rp-20_1.html
They've also introduced scale-wide standards for modules and DCC.
Hope that helps.
-Stefan-
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> Quite right. This is why the model scales have brass flywheels on top of
> the motors. As for the rubber, we need actual traction tires (with treads)
> on the wheels, not just wrapped rubber bands.
Figure for steel wheels/steel rail is that you can get 1/4th the weight on
drivers as TE. More for a modern DE loco with anti-slip and AC motors (more
like 1/3rd). As regards traction tyres, no, we don't need them. What is
there should work well enough, given the limits of having to power the motor
from the rails.
> > What the best weights are is not clear to me. This info has been calculated
> > for other gauges like HO and N.
The short answer is that it doesn't matter. As long as you pick a
reasonable figure per inch of car, then they should track reasonably well.
The heavier the cars, the less likely they are to derail (all other things
being equal). But, the more TE required to pull them, requiring more
motors. I have never run into big problems with lego cars except on very
long trains (~50 cars and more), when light (IE piggyback cars made from the
drop center plates) tend to derail on the corners. At more typical train
sizes (5-20 cars), I haven't had problems, but I tend towards smaller cars
than some other people here (Hi Larry, yep, its Eurotrash!).
James Powell
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I also am a firm believer in running short trains with LEGO®. Not only do
they tax the 9V motors less, but they're easier to manage and somehow convey
a more dramatic effect to my eyes...especially when using two-axle equipment.
-Harvey
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James Powell wrote:
> The short answer is that it doesn't matter. As long as you pick a
> reasonable figure per inch of car, then they should track reasonably well.
> The heavier the cars, the less likely they are to derail (all other things
> being equal). But, the more TE required to pull them, requiring more
> motors. I have never run into big problems with lego cars except on very
> long trains (~50 cars and more), when light (IE piggyback cars made from the
> drop center plates) tend to derail on the corners. At more typical train
> sizes (5-20 cars), I haven't had problems, but I tend towards smaller cars
> than some other people here (Hi Larry, yep, its Eurotrash!).
Euro-trash? Care to explain?? :D
As for weight... one weight brick per 9v engine block seems to work fine
for me. I refitted my 7760 with a 9v block and it ran great, a LOT
stronger than my 4563 engine. After fitting the 4563 with one weight
brick, difference became a lot smaller.
--
Jan-Albert "Anvil" van Ree | http://www.vanree.net/~javanree/
VanReeDotNet IT Solutions | http://www.vanree.net
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In lugnet.trains, Jan-Albert van Ree writes:
> James Powell wrote: • [snip]
> As for weight... one weight brick per 9v engine block seems to work fine
> for me. I refitted my 7760 with a 9v block and it ran great, a LOT
> stronger than my 4563 engine. After fitting the 4563 with one weight
> brick, difference became a lot smaller.
I have another trick to improve your engines/motors. If you take a close look
at the motor wheels you see there are small round rubber bands. You can
exchange the original ones against the rubberbands used in the Lego bicycles.
Those are a little bit thicker in their diameter. And if you take two of the
cheap telekom bikes for each motor, the bikes will look more like racing bikes
because of the smaller tyres... ;-))
You will be suprised who much stronger your engines become (especially without
extra weight and at sloped track sections. Any feedback is welcome - I did
this with as many engines as I had bikes available.
Kind Regards,
Ben
P.s.: has anybody around some dozens of bicycles? I would need them to upgrade
all my engines since each two motors engine needs 4 bikes for this upgrade.
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Wow! Thast's the first time I've ever heard of that. I noticed those rubber
tires on the motors before, wondered about the life span etc... but kaboom!
What an idea!
I changed the subject, some might be trailing off this one...
SteveB
From "Re: My Santa Fe Train Kit Theories" thread
> I have another trick to improve your engines/motors. If you take a close look
> at the motor wheels you see there are small round rubber bands. You can
> exchange the original ones against the rubberbands used in the Lego bicycles.
>
> You will be suprised who much stronger your engines become (especially without
> extra weight and at sloped track sections. Any feedback is welcome - I did
> this with as many engines as I had bikes available.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Ben
>
> P.s.: has anybody around some dozens of bicycles? I would need them to upgrade
> all my engines since each two motors engine needs 4 bikes for this upgrade.
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In lugnet.trains, Steve Barile writes:
> Wow! Thast's the first time I've ever heard of that. I noticed those rubber
> tires on the motors before, wondered about the life span etc... but kaboom!
> What an idea!
...
I agree. It's a great idea. And I like the look of the bicycles with the
thinner tire, too. I changed two motors right away and there's no question,
the traction is improved immensely. I changed the Santa Fe 'A' unit and my
'B' unit, and the wheels went from slipping to no slippage at all.
However, it makes the Santa Fe run worse.
Here's my setup: a Santa Fe engine, with a single weight brick over the
motor, a run-of-the-mill 'B' engine (motor in front, one weight brick),
followed by five stock Santa Fe cars, one of each. Before I made Ben's
change, the engines would slip miserably, but barely pull the train through
the circuit. After I made Ben's change, the train completely stalled at
several points. In both cases, the controller was on full voltage. One stall
had the engine directly over the controller clips.
The track layout is about forty feet in a contorted figure eight on level
ground. The stalls mostly happened when the rear of the train was all on
curved track. There are two level crossings; one crossing derailed the 'B'
engine once. There are two track 'x' crossings; the wheels of the trailing
cars made a terrible "ka-chunk" sounds when they went through the crossings.
The engines initially lurched forward when starting out, so I immediately
checked both motors to make sure the wheels turned freely, and that the
rubber tires were on evenly and securely. I took one passenger car off, and
it still ran poorly. With three cars, it ran OK. But with five cars, the
engines jump forward erratically rather than roll smoothly or freely. Oddly,
they run better backwards than forwards.
I examined some of the cars wheelsets, and noticed that when the wheels
spin, they make a tick-tick-tick sound. I couldn't see what was making the
noise. In all fairness, I need to switch out all of the wheelsets to old
ones to see if that train runs well. I haven't done that yet.
I'd be interested in hearing how others stock Santa Fe + cars run.
Cary
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Hi Ben,
I've also done the tire-exchange in the past. And also out of Telekom's
by now... :-)
My best Trick: just add more power on the track.
I've exchanged the Lego-transformer for a standard 6-dollar-one (with 2
outlets!):
2 times ~11,5V / 1,25A each.
Tested together with Jan-Albert van Ree: 8 (yes eight!) trains together
run completely smooth on just one outlet/rail attachment!
Maximum speed could not be tested: derailment at 2/3 power.
I've seen many postings about 'the regulator can't handle these
currents', but that is all theory.
No problems or whatever with the regulators.
I'll bring one of my transformers to Legoworld, you can see (and test)
for yourself.
I'm curious how many trains we need for the regulator to burn. Shall we
test it next week? I'll offer a regulator for that purpose!
No theories, but heavy trial-and-error... :-)
Klaas
BTW: 2 week ago I visited Günzburg (TOP!), and the BigShop sold the
Telekom-bycicles for 0,90 Euro/bike. Mega heaps of these boxes where
lying around... but after 2 days with Lego-consuming kids (and
myself...) a ran out of Euro's, so, no bikes for me.
Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Jan-Albert van Ree writes:
>
> > James Powell wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > As for weight... one weight brick per 9v engine block seems to work fine
> > for me. I refitted my 7760 with a 9v block and it ran great, a LOT
> > stronger than my 4563 engine. After fitting the 4563 with one weight
> > brick, difference became a lot smaller.
>
>
> I have another trick to improve your engines/motors. If you take a close look
> at the motor wheels you see there are small round rubber bands. You can
> exchange the original ones against the rubberbands used in the Lego bicycles.
>
> Those are a little bit thicker in their diameter. And if you take two of the
> cheap telekom bikes for each motor, the bikes will look more like racing bikes
> because of the smaller tyres... ;-))
>
> You will be suprised who much stronger your engines become (especially without
> extra weight and at sloped track sections. Any feedback is welcome - I did
> this with as many engines as I had bikes available.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Ben
>
> P.s.: has anybody around some dozens of bicycles? I would need them to upgrade
> all my engines since each two motors engine needs 4 bikes for this upgrade.
>
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greenman wrote:
> BTW: 2 week ago I visited Günzburg (TOP!), and the BigShop sold the
> Telekom-bycicles for 0,90 Euro/bike. Mega heaps of these boxes where
> lying around... but after 2 days with Lego-consuming kids (and
> myself...) a ran out of Euro's, so, no bikes for me.
At LEGOWorld, Intertoys will probably have these in their megashop
there. And current Intertoys price is 99 Eurocents :D
--
Jan-Albert "Anvil" van Ree | http://www.vanree.net/~javanree/
VanReeDotNet IT Solutions | http://www.vanree.net
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We at the SCLTC had noticed the same issues everyone else has mentioned. We
love to run long trains and decided to modify controllers to supply more
electricity to the tracks. We used the information that someone here at
LUGNET had supplied unfortunately I can't remember whom. So far we've run 5
motors simultaneously with no problems whatsoever. This mod coupled with a
train weight over each motor and our traction/slowdown problems seem to be
solved. We will be testing more this weekend so I will keep you all informed
of any issues that arise.
Robert Powell
SCLTC
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