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I think you've just about said it all Ben, I'll add that 9V rails can be
cleaned with a soft, dry cloth every couple weeks for optimum performance.
-Harvey
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In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> I think you've just about said it all Ben, I'll add that 9V rails can be
> cleaned with a soft, dry cloth every couple weeks for optimum performance.
> -Harvey
I have never done this, ever. And I have had no problems whatever.
Unless you let your kids take the track outside (Hi Chris...) this is not
necessary. It's stainless wheels on stainless track precisely to obviate
this need.
Therefore I would strongly suggest NOT putting this advice in a *beginners*
FAQ as it will scare people off. Needlessly.
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In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > I think you've just about said it all Ben, I'll add that 9V rails can be
> > cleaned with a soft, dry cloth every couple weeks for optimum performance.
> > -Harvey
>
> I have never done this, ever. And I have had no problems whatever.
>
> Unless you let your kids take the track outside (Hi Chris...) this is not
> necessary. It's stainless wheels on stainless track precisely to obviate
> this need.
>
> Therefore I would strongly suggest NOT putting this advice in a *beginners*
> FAQ as it will scare people off. Needlessly.
I agree. I'd also start a beginners guide by talking about 9V and the
options available, then summarise older systems (battery, 12V) so that the
beginner knows they're out there, and can then decide whether to seek them
out specifically or avoid them to concentrate on current product. Starting
a beginners' guide with a description of 12V like this could be confusing.
Jason J Railton
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Whoa there now Mr.P, how come every time I have advice to give, you have to
talk down to me like some kid? Theres been plenty of times where I've taken
the cloth mentioned above and wiped plenty of black crud off, and my track
is indoors in an air-conditioned room to boot (no kids or pets either)
I've noticed that pattern with you, always talking down to others. I don't
get upset often, but this smug attitude of yours is over the top for me!
I've had plenty of experience with model trains, and having rubber traction
tires with plastic wheels on the cars equals dirty track. Thats why scale
modellers turn to metal wheels on all rolling stock. It don't matter whether
it's HO scale or LEGO®.
I've finished my spiel...
Harvey Henkelman-Certified Ferroequinologist
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Harvey,
Personally, I think you need to stiffen your spine a bit. Larry was in no way
talking down to you.
You seem to bristle at ANYTHING Larry posts, whether it is constructive
criticism or not. I think your perception of Larry (i.e. you) is the problem
just as much as anything else.
Harvey Henkelman wrote:
> Whoa there now Mr.P, how come every time I have advice to give, you have to
> talk down to me like some kid? Theres been plenty of times where I've taken
> the cloth mentioned above and wiped plenty of black crud off, and my track
> is indoors in an air-conditioned room to boot (no kids or pets either)
>
> I've noticed that pattern with you, always talking down to others. I don't
> get upset often, but this smug attitude of yours is over the top for me!
> I've had plenty of experience with model trains, and having rubber traction
> tires with plastic wheels on the cars equals dirty track. Thats why scale
> modellers turn to metal wheels on all rolling stock. It don't matter whether
> it's HO scale or LEGO®.
>
> I've finished my spiel...
> Harvey Henkelman-Certified Ferroequinologist
--
Tom Stangl
***http://www.vfaq.com/
***DSM Visual FAQ home
***http://ba.dsm.org/
***SF Bay Area DSMs
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Considering how many times I've posted in reply to Mr. P...
...my opinion stands
And I thought this discussion was over with.
Well, as of this minute...I will no longer post advice or debate of any
kind. My words will be limited to announcing my upcoming website opening and
MOC's.
I'll leave the advice to the self-proclaimed 'experts'
Harvey Henkelman-Certified Ferroequinologist
http://community.webtv.net/Ferroequus/FerroequusDomain
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In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> Considering how many times I've posted in reply to Mr. P...
As to this particular issue, I stand behind my opinion, by and large, in
normal use, the 9V track doesn't need regular cleaning. Can it benefit from
it? Maybe... I haven't needed to, though. Others have. That's fine.
Is it appropriate to put into a beginner FAQ? No. Not in my view. I've given
my reasons why. Don't bog a beginner FAQ down with excessive detail and
caveats. (others have even went further and suggested that a beginner FAQ
ought to omit 12V entirely as too esoteric, for example)
It's random chance that I hung that statement (about cleaning) on your post,
because it was random chance, presumably, that you responded first with the
assertion that cleaning was needed. Not some sort of big plot to undercut
you. Don't flatter yourself.
In the large though, I'm not sure what you're getting at, Harvey. Mostly I
ignore your posts. Your pronouncements that you're leaving, that you're
back, that you're leaving again, your statements that you're writing the
NMRA to tell them things (which, truth be told, they already know, because
of the hard work of clubs all around the country), your questions about
whether you should do models or not, whether you should redo models, your
statements about taking on jobs, your annoucements that you are hosting a
chatroom discussion and you expect everyone to come in and participate,
etc... I view those all as chitchat.
Harmless, but noise. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, we all make noise.
It's part of the fun of the hobby.
No one is attacking you for having an opinion in this matter, or in any
other matter. That doesn't mean that they agree, mind you. Don't view
disagreement as attack.
> ...my opinion stands
As it should, unless you decide it shouldn't. The interchange of ideas is
part of what makes discussion groups great. Different ideas get voiced,
reshaped, people learn things, etc. Some people in this group are new to
trains, some have been fans all their lives. Some are only mildly
interested, some are passionate. And yes, some knowledge can come off as
being a bit pedantic. Deal.
> I'll leave the advice to the self-proclaimed 'experts'
> Harvey Henkelman-Certified Ferroequinologist
Does anyone but me find the above two lines, one right after the other, at
all ironic? I never sign my posts "train fan for 35 years" or "Has every
back issue of TRAINS to 1970" or "successful model designer" or "Has
implemented IT systems at several logistics companies and railroads" or any
of the other true things I could say if I wanted to.
I don't see the need. Knowledge speaks for itself without the need for
aggrandizement, and people over time develop their own opinions of who knows
what they're talking about and who doesn't. It's a meritocracy. And that's good.
And especially, I don't much make up labels for myself. However if there IS
a process to become a "certified ferroequinologist" that has some standing
among others, not just something you made up, I'm certainly interested.
However the title smacks of "self proclaimed expert" to my eyes.
In closing: Harvey, (and everyone else) do what you want to do and be happy
in your hobby. Contribute, or don't, here, or elsewhere, as you choose. When
you have something valuable to contribute, the forum will be that much
richer for your presence or poorer for your absense. But, conversely, when
you have something disruptive to contribute, it will be that much POORER for
your contribution or richer if you choose not to sully it with it... You decide.
++Lar
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I followed this discussion: fantastic waste of words and webspace! I
love it.
Oké, my suggestion to make up between you two:
Larry: you design a neat small automatic track-sweaper, to be mounted on
a 9V motor, frontside of course.... Building not necessary, so
prohibited use of it to you, ha! :-)
Harvey: you build Larry's design, demonstrate the benefit to us, and you
may use it as much as needed. How's that?
Everybody else: enjoy their efforts and build/use it or not!
I certainly will from time to time, pets and kids make a lot of dust
around here......
Klaas
Larry Pieniazek wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
>
> > Considering how many times I've posted in reply to Mr. P...
>
>
> As to this particular issue, I stand behind my opinion, by and large, in
> normal use, the 9V track doesn't need regular cleaning. Can it benefit from
> it? Maybe... I haven't needed to, though. Others have. That's fine.
>etc. etc.
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message
news:H1CsFw.5Fo@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > Considering how many times I've posted in reply to Mr. P...
>
> As to this particular issue, I stand behind my opinion, by and large, in
> normal use, the 9V track doesn't need regular cleaning. Can it benefit • from
> it? Maybe... I haven't needed to, though. Others have. That's fine.
>
> Is it appropriate to put into a beginner FAQ? No. Not in my view. I've • given
> my reasons why. Don't bog a beginner FAQ down with excessive detail and
> caveats. (others have even went further and suggested that a beginner FAQ
> ought to omit 12V entirely as too esoteric, for example)
Is it done yet.
> It's random chance that I hung that statement (about cleaning) on your • post,
> because it was random chance, presumably, that you responded first with • the
> assertion that cleaning was needed. Not some sort of big plot to undercut
> you. Don't flatter yourself.
>
> In the large though, I'm not sure what you're getting at, Harvey. Mostly I
> ignore your posts. Your pronouncements that you're leaving, that you're
> back, that you're leaving again, your statements that you're writing the
> NMRA to tell them things (which, truth be told, they already know, because
> of the hard work of clubs all around the country), your questions about
> whether you should do models or not, whether you should redo models, your
> statements about taking on jobs, your annoucements that you are hosting a
> chatroom discussion and you expect everyone to come in and participate,
> etc... I view those all as chitchat.
Blah, blah, blah....
> Harmless, but noise. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, we all make noise.
> It's part of the fun of the hobby.
>
> No one is attacking you for having an opinion in this matter, or in any
> other matter. That doesn't mean that they agree, mind you. Don't view
> disagreement as attack.
>
> > ...my opinion stands
>
> As it should, unless you decide it shouldn't. The interchange of ideas is
> part of what makes discussion groups great. Different ideas get voiced,
> reshaped, people learn things, etc. Some people in this group are new to
> trains, some have been fans all their lives. Some are only mildly
> interested, some are passionate. And yes, some knowledge can come off as
> being a bit pedantic. Deal.
Here we go again, blah, blah, blah.....
> > I'll leave the advice to the self-proclaimed 'experts'
> > Harvey Henkelman-Certified Ferroequinologist
>
> Does anyone but me find the above two lines, one right after the other, at
> all ironic? I never sign my posts "train fan for 35 years" or "Has every
> back issue of TRAINS to 1970" or "successful model designer" or "Has
> implemented IT systems at several logistics companies and railroads" or • any
> of the other true things I could say if I wanted to.
>
> I don't see the need. Knowledge speaks for itself without the need for
> aggrandizement, and people over time develop their own opinions of who • knows
> what they're talking about and who doesn't. It's a meritocracy. And that's • good.
>
> And especially, I don't much make up labels for myself. However if there • IS
> a process to become a "certified ferroequinologist" that has some standing
> among others, not just something you made up, I'm certainly interested.
> However the title smacks of "self proclaimed expert" to my eyes.
>
> In closing: Harvey, (and everyone else) do what you want to do and be • happy
> in your hobby. Contribute, or don't, here, or elsewhere, as you choose. • When
> you have something valuable to contribute, the forum will be that much
> richer for your presence or poorer for your absense. But, conversely, when
> you have something disruptive to contribute, it will be that much POORER • for
> your contribution or richer if you choose not to sully it with it... You • decide.
>
> ++Lar
Finally, blah, blah, blah... I feel a migraine coming one.
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In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > I think you've just about said it all Ben, I'll add that 9V rails can be
> > cleaned with a soft, dry cloth every couple weeks for optimum performance.
> > -Harvey
>
> I have never done this, ever. And I have had no problems whatever.
>
> Unless you let your kids take the track outside (Hi Chris...) this is not
> necessary. It's stainless wheels on stainless track precisely to obviate
> this need.
>
> Therefore I would strongly suggest NOT putting this advice in a *beginners*
> FAQ as it will scare people off. Needlessly.
Then your house must have little dust b/c thats what happens to mine. A layer
of dust is formed and I have to clean it all the time. And when I go around a
week w/o running trains(if i'm working on my live steam engine too much)that
happens. I have a small paintbrush for my models. Its realtiy Larry, some
people have more dust in their house or other junk building on the rails.
Dan
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We have to clean the rails on our layout every time we take it out. Usually
we do it by running a train over the tracks with a small load. They
definitely get dirty though...
-John 3
In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > I think you've just about said it all Ben, I'll add that 9V rails can be
> > cleaned with a soft, dry cloth every couple weeks for optimum performance.
> > -Harvey
>
> I have never done this, ever. And I have had no problems whatever.
>
> Unless you let your kids take the track outside (Hi Chris...) this is not
> necessary. It's stainless wheels on stainless track precisely to obviate
> this need.
>
> Therefore I would strongly suggest NOT putting this advice in a *beginners*
> FAQ as it will scare people off. Needlessly.
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In lugnet.trains, John Kelly III writes:
> We have to clean the rails on our layout every time we take it out. Usually
> we do it by running a train over the tracks with a small load. They
> definitely get dirty though...
At our recent "dry run" for NALUG's upcoming layout, we noticed some rough
places running at low speed, and needed to spot-clean the rails. It took
about 3 years and 4 shows to reach that point, though.
James
> In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > > I think you've just about said it all Ben, I'll add that 9V rails can be
> > > cleaned with a soft, dry cloth every couple weeks for optimum performance.
> > > -Harvey
> >
> > I have never done this, ever. And I have had no problems whatever.
> >
> > Unless you let your kids take the track outside (Hi Chris...) this is not
> > necessary. It's stainless wheels on stainless track precisely to obviate
> > this need.
> >
> > Therefore I would strongly suggest NOT putting this advice in a *beginners*
> > FAQ as it will scare people off. Needlessly.
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In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > I think you've just about said it all Ben, I'll add that 9V rails can be
> > cleaned with a soft, dry cloth every couple weeks for optimum performance.
> > -Harvey
>
> I have never done this, ever. And I have had no problems whatever.
>
> Unless you let your kids take the track outside (Hi Chris...) this is not
> necessary. It's stainless wheels on stainless track precisely to obviate
> this need.
>
> Therefore I would strongly suggest NOT putting this advice in a *beginners*
> FAQ as it will scare people off. Needlessly.
Please calm down folks....
First let me say a 'thank you' to all who left input.
In a conclusion on dirt&dust topic one might say:
- 9V may need some cleaning now and then, but shows a great resistance against
dirt.
- 12V conductor rails collect all kind of dirt much easier and have to be
cleaned in almost every case for smooth operation.
Regarded under technical aspect this may a result of the tribological form of
movement:
12V power pick ups slide just over the middle conductor rails and causes wear,
but does not transport dust easiely away.
9V power pick up works via the stainless steel wheels that are pressed
sidewards against the track. The form of movement is both sliding + drilling
at the same time. That is a way to transport dust easier away. And since it is
sidewards less dust will stick there anyway. Most dust simply follows gravity
and is placed on top of the track.
*******
And of course in a train FAQ one should start with:
- 9V system
- then speak of 12V system ('grey era' + mention the 'blue era' none-minifig
style stuff.)
- then 4.5V system (which has been more common as 'blue' than in 'grey')
- and mention monorail as an extra system in the end.
********
Thanks for sharing your points of view. I think this whole thread is a quite
helpful one now.
Have a nice weekend!
Ben
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
...
> First let me say a 'thank you' to all who left input.
...
To fit into the current organization of the train FAQ, I believe this is
suggesting additions or rewrites to several existing FAQ entries:
- LEGO makes trains? Where can I get them?
http://www.lugnet.com/~330/FAQ/Trains/trains
(I've already added a short blurb; I need to add pointers to other relevant
FAQ entries, and something about monorail, 4.5V)
(could add a short entry about favorite 12V trains)
- Are 4.5V, 9V and 12V trains compatible?
http://www.lugnet.com/~330/FAQ/Trains/volts
(advantages / disadvantages could be added here)
(difference in 9V/12V electrical pickup could be added here)
- Where can I get a Metroliner, or another older train?
http://www.lugnet.com/~330/FAQ/Trains/metro
(could include more information about getting older 12V stuff)
And additionally suggests a new FAQ entry:
- something about cleaning (or not cleaning) track
I imagine that most longtime readers of lugnet.trains have no reason to ever
look at the FAQ. However, please keep in mind that the FAQ is aimed towards
the first-time visitor to LUGNET, who, like many train show visitors, have
never seen a LEGO train before. The first entry in the train FAQ probably
shouldn't bury the reader in details.
There's no reason why subsequent entries can't include lots more
information, and the first entry can include pointers as is appropriate.
Cary
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In lugnet.trains, Cary Clark writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> ...
> > First let me say a 'thank you' to all who left input.
>
> ...
>
> To fit into the current organization of the train FAQ, I believe this is
> suggesting additions or rewrites to several existing FAQ entries:
...
I've made a first pass at adding the jist of this thread into the FAQ. You
can view the results most easily by reading through the first few entries here:
http://www.lugnet.com/~330/FAQ/Trains/all
If you have ideas to improve this, please let me know.
Thanks
Cary
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