Subject:
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Re: Mormon bashing again
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 3 Mar 2000 02:06:15 GMT
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Viewed:
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772 times
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Bill Farkas wrote in message ...
> > > "Reading, reflection and time have convinced me that the
> > > interests of society require the observation of those
> > > moral precepts only in which all religions agree (for all
> > > forbid us to steal, murder, plunder, or bear false witness),
> > > and that we should not intermeddle with the particular
> > > dogmas in which all religions differ, and which are
> > > totally unconnected with morality." --Thomas Jefferson to
> > > J. Fishback, 1809.
> >
> > To me this suggests that TJ would speak against posting of the Ten
> > Comandments in any way which would imply government endorsement of them.
> > Note that TJ is the author of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
> > (which I think pre-dates the Bill of Rights [so I'm a bot lazy - I
> > should verify the timeline]).
>
> I don't see that interpretation. He says nothing of endorsing, he mentions
> observing moral precepts accepted by all religions - which I also mentioned • in
> my original comments:
>
> > The fact that we gather in to groups and universally come up with very • similar
> > laws to govern ourselves is evidence of a law outside ourselves.
>
> The ten commandments are a concise example of these basic principles. He
> mentions these "precepts" in the context of governing society which equals
> legislation. As I said before, posting the ten commandments is not • endorsing or
> mandating anything. Separation regards mandating a state religion. Again, • that
> "some" of the founders advocated a particular religion is clear, and does • not
> constitute a mandate. I am not for endorsing a particular religion, I am • merely
> defending the posting of the commandments and the teaching of creation • which is
> the only other viable alternative to evolution which is also a theory and
> therefore faith-based.
Ah, but the Ten Commandments are MORE than an example of the basic
principles, here they are for reference:
1 - Thou shalt have no other God's before me.
2 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3 - Thou shall not take the name of the
Lord Thy God in vain.
4 - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5 - Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
6 - Thou shalt not kill.
7 - Thou shall not commit adultry.
8 - Thou shall not steal.
9 - Thou shall not bear false witness
against thy neighbor.
10 - Thou shall not covet thy neighbor`s house.
Numbers 1-4 are definitely NOT universal, at least not in my book. In fact I
would say that only 8-10 are universal. One problem is that they are too
simplistic, what is meant by "do not kill"? Some religions extend this idea
to ALL creatures. I don't know if anyone extends it to plants. Now "do not
kill" is based on the principles which underlay Libertarian thought, that
each individual has inalienable rights, especially to the property of his
body and health. Number 5 is certainly a good idea in general, but would you
ask the child of a crack addicted mother to unconditionally honor his
mother? Number 7 is also generally a good idea, and is related to the basic
rights, but it really comes down to a contract issue, and certain activities
which some may perceive as adultery are not a violation of that contract
(i.e. if a husband and wife both agree that each other is free to have a
little something on the side, there is no contract violation, though it
would certainly appear that they are adulterers).
And whether you think that posting them doesn't endorse Christianity or not,
the perception is one of endorsement, and that is something which is
critical, especially when it comes to posting them in a court room.
Now I have no problem with a class in a public school which teaches
religion, but it probably has to do so in an objective way, and certainly
must not be required in any fashion (though teaching a minimal basic amount
of information about the major world religions could be part of a required
course, since I think you can objectively show that the information is
important to understanding the world of today). The school does need to be
prepared to offer courses on any religion however that a minimal class size
can be found for (in other words, if the school requires that a class have a
minimum of 50 potential students to be offered, and I can find 50 students
who want a class on Satanism, and can find a qualified teacher [and you
can't disqualify the teacher because she happens to be a Satanist], then the
school really has to offer the class).
Frank
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Message has 4 Replies:
 | | Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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| (...) Hmm, I never thought about this one too much before the MS vs. DOJ case, but does this mean that there are in fact other gods besides "God" and that He desires to cultivate and maintain a monopoly in His target market? --Todd (24 years ago, 3-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Mormon bashing again
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| (...) An extreme example of this would be walking into a government building and seeing a swastika mounted on the wall. Now, I don't know about you, but I would very quickly get the impression that which ever government agency was housed in said (...) (24 years ago, 3-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Mormon bashing again
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| (...) Oh! I just realized, I have another question about the deep meaning of this the First Commandment. OK, is it assumed or implied here that God is commanding us to believe that he exists and to have Him as our god? Or is he simply saying (this (...) (24 years ago, 5-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Mormon bashing again
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| (...) I don't see that interpretation. He says nothing of endorsing, he mentions observing moral precepts accepted by all religions - which I also mentioned in my original comments: (...) The ten commandments are a concise example of these basic (...) (24 years ago, 2-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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